Say how to delete objects from OPENSTREETMAP, not just how to delete from a LAYER

[jidanni]

User wants to delete a defunct hamburger store.

User downloads a rectangle containing it along with other objects.

User reads
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Delete
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/EditDelete
and find he can indeed delete the node from the LAYER.

That is all those pages talk about.

They need to go on and explain how to delete from OPENSTREETMAP.

Else the user thinks he will then upload his modified layer.

But that would just duplicate all the other nodes in the rectangle.

All this needs to be spelled out explicitly on those two help pages.

Else the user can only use ID or Potlatch2.

[bastiK]

Replying to jidanni:

Else the user thinks he will then upload his modified layer.

Which is what you would normally do.

But that would just duplicate all the other nodes in the rectangle.

How so??

[jidanni]

User searches for all street_lamps, and finds two.
He Copys and Pastes them into a new layer.
He deletes one of them from the layer.
If he uploads at this point, he will just be sending the remaining point
back to OSM where is collides and, OK, is ignored.
He still doesn't know how to delete a point from OSM.
Or maybe all the other innocent objects in OSM that are within the
bounding box will now disappear...

OK mention that the usual method in JOSM is to download a rectangle with
fifteen thousands objects in it. Delete one, and then send all 14,999
back to OSM where the missing object is noticed, (and the rest harmlessly
collide) and then deleted.

Anyway my point is: the user has arrived at the Delete Help Pages
looking for a way to delete something from OSM.

You need to make the story complete there, all the way until where you
say the final steps needed to delete an object from OSM.

This is different than the user creates a layer with 34 points in it,
deletes two, and uploads the rest to OSM.

[bastiK]

Replying to jidanni:

User searches for all street_lamps, and finds two.
He Copys and Pastes them into a new layer.

There is no way in JOSM to create a new blank layer, unless you are in expert mode.

Anyway my point is: the user has arrived at the Delete Help Pages
looking for a way to delete something from OSM.

You need to make the story complete there, all the way until where you
say the final steps needed to delete an object from OSM.

This is different than the user creates a layer with 34 points in it,
deletes two, and uploads the rest to OSM.

Agreed, it is possible to explain the big picture a little better. Generally, it is not necessary to open a ticket when the documentation is incomplete. We are well aware it isn't perfect and there are just too many places that can be improved. You are welcome to add your knowledge, though.

[jidanni]

Well some of us that use expert mode don't know how to delete from OSM so use ID editor to do that.
Actually I recall I made an .osm file with delete tags and uploaded it via JOSM to OSM and that worked.

[Klumbumbus]

Thats the basic workflow in JOSM.

1. download an area
2. make your changes
3. upload

It is explaied here wiki:Introduction and doesn't need to be explained on every single possible editing action a user can do in step two.

[jidanni]

I have a revolutionary proposal that might make things much more
efficient in some cases. 10000 times more efficient.

In expert mode add a button that will mark selected objects with
e.g., <way action='delete'>

The icon for this button should be skull and crossbones, not trash can,
to eliminate confusion.

The button could be called 'Delete from OSM'.

(One would think the user could achieve the same currently by adding key=action
value=delete in the Tags panel. Alas this only affects

<way action='modify' ...'>

<tag k='action' v='delete' />

not the action='modify' in the higher level.)

Yes, in the Basic Flow you mentioned, the user
Downloads 10000 objects,
Removes 1,
Uploads 9999 objects.

I'm saying in certain cases, certain expert users would just like to
Upload 1 "poison" object.
to achieve the same effect.

[bastiK]

You have some misconceptions here. JOSM will never upload 9999 unchanged objects to the server, this would be ridiculous.

If you click the upload button, JOSM will list exactly the objects that are sent to the server.

[gertjanidema]

@jidanni If I understand it correctly, you copy and paste the data you want to edit to a new layer. You really shouldn't do that.
You should edit the layer you downloaded and upload this layer when you're finished. Josm will only upload the changes you made and never create duplicates.