help-wiki of select mode

[HeiKue]

I am currently working on translating the help pages into German.
I stumbled upon something in the English help pages regarding the select mode.

The table in the section Select the single object states that you can only unselect objects in combination with the Ctrl key.
But as far as I know and have had experience, you can toggle the selection.

Am I wrong or have I missed something?
Or is the help page incomplete?
If it is incomplete, I can complete it.

[stoecker]

Or is the help page incomplete?

Very likely. I'd suggest to check against the software itself.

[HeiKue]

Replying to stoecker:

I'd suggest to check against the software itself.

Check against source code, too?
In use it works, but I don't necessarily know all the dependencies.
However, it is a very useful function if you only want to select a few objects individually, which should not be withheld from a user.
You select the first object individually by clicking and then add more with Ctrl and mouse click.

[stoecker]

Replying to HeiKue:

Replying to stoecker:

I'd suggest to check against the software itself.

Check against source code, too?

If you can :-)

In use it works, but I don't necessarily know all the dependencies.

Probably nobody knows. JOSM is too complex to know all details.

[skyper]

Replying to HeiKue:

The table in the section Select the single object states that you can only unselect objects in combination with the Ctrl key.

This is wrong.

But as far as I know and have had experience, you can toggle the selection.

You are right, toggle is better, just take a look at the cursor details, though there seems to be some inconsistencies as unlike add (Shift) a double left mouse click does not work and when using left mouse hold plus drag it is unselect instead of toggle. Did not check any other modifier keys, yet.

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

add (Shift) a double left mouse click does not work

This works on my Win11 PC.

when using left mouse hold plus drag it is unselect instead of toggle

I can confirm.
But I also think that you can't really keep the single and rectangular selection consistent with regard to shift/alt/ctrl behavior, because the use case and the desired behavior are different.

I tested it (Win11) and improved the tables of Help/Action/Select#Selectsingle and Help/Action/Select#Modifiers.
But I can't be sure if this will work on other OS.
In particular, the instruction “Alt can be combined with Shift” for rectangular selections does not work on my Win11 PC.
Only Alt + Shift + double left mouse click a single object works like Alt + double left mouse click but with add to selection.
At least I would prefer not to document all these special cases (Alt/Ctrl/Shift combinations) so as not to drive the readers (and author) crazy :-)

Please review the help page.
English is not my native language ;-)

[skyper]

Replying to HeiKue:

Replying to skyper:

though there seems to be some inconsistencies as unlike add (Shift) a double left mouse click does not work

This works on my Win11 PC.

Oh, I see, Ctrl + double left click works but only as unselect but not as toggle

when using left mouse hold plus drag it is unselect instead of toggle

I can confirm.
But I also think that you can't really keep the single and rectangular selection consistent with regard to shift/alt/ctrl behavior, because the use case and the desired behavior are different.

You are right. Rectangular selection is a different case and it is documented correctly.

I tested it (Win11) and improved the tables of Help/Action/Select#Selectsingle and Help/Action/Select#Modifiers.

Mmh, you removed Shift from the first table. Why?
The deeper I dive into the selection and all its option, I find only toggle in the simple selection. In all other modes Ctrl works only as unselect.

But I can't be sure if this will work on other OS.
In particular, the instruction “Alt can be combined with Shift” for rectangular selections does not work on my Win11 PC.

Works for me on Linux. Have you tried Atl Gr instead of Alt?

At least I would prefer not to document all these special cases (Alt/Ctrl/Shift combinations) so as not to drive the readers (and author) crazy :-)

Please review the help page.

I'll try to find some time to review and rework. I think all the additional actions like rotate and move are a bit hidden, so an overview with a couple of sentence on top would be a good starting point. Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Lasso-Mode only effects the area selection an all other parts are equal.

English is not my native language ;-)

I think all three of us have this in common.

[skyper]

@HeiKue:
Sorry forgot. Please be careful with white spaces at the start and end of each cell of a table. They influence the alignment, see wiki:WikiFormatting#SimpleTables

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

I tested it (Win11) and improved the tables of Help/Action/Select#Selectsingle and Help/Action/Select#Modifiers.

Mmh, you removed Shift from the first table. Why?

Removed?
Oh, yes, I added it.
But in my defense, the shift line wasn't there before either :-)

But I can't be sure if this will work on other OS.
In particular, the instruction “Alt can be combined with Shift” for rectangular selections does not work on my Win11 PC.

Works for me on Linux. Have you tried Atl Gr instead of Alt?

strange, now it works for me...

English is not my native language ;-)

I think all three of us have this in common.

such bad luck ...

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

@HeiKue:
Sorry forgot. Please be careful with white spaces at the start and end of each cell of a table. They influence the alignment, see wiki:WikiFormatting#SimpleTables

I have noticed that too.
I'm familiar with normal wikitext, but this wiki language is something special.
I'll check/correct my edits.

[skyper]

Replying to HeiKue:

Replying to skyper:

I tested it (Win11) and improved the tables of Help/Action/Select#Selectsingle and Help/Action/Select#Modifiers.

Mmh, you removed Shift from the first table. Why?

Removed?
Oh, yes, I added it.
But in my defense, the shift line wasn't there before either :-)

My bad, sorry. Should have checked the history instead of relying on my memory.

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

My bad, sorry. Should have checked the history instead of relying on my memory.

Two people and the same problem :-(
But as long as something good comes out of it together, everything is fine :-)
Let's have fun!

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Lasso-Mode only effects the area selection an all other parts are equal.

It's already mentioned on Lasso page:
Draw a loop around the objects. The modifier keys are the same as for the regular selection mode.
The selection can then be refined with other selection tools (filters, search, regular selection tool).
And the regular select page already links to lasso select page.

[skyper]

Replying to HeiKue:

Replying to skyper:

Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Lasso-Mode only effects the area selection and all other parts are equal.

It's already mentioned on Lasso page:
Draw a loop around the objects. The modifier keys are the same as for the regular selection mode.
The selection can then be refined with other selection tools (filters, search, regular selection tool).

I made my changes: diff

And the regular select page already links to lasso select page.

I made my changes regarding Lasso mode: diff

[HeiKue]

"lasso mode" or "lasso selection mode"?
JOSM program: menu "Mode > Lasso Mode", but help pop up: "Lasso selection mode: select objects within a hand-drawn region".

[skyper]

Unfortunately, names across JOSM are pretty inconsistent, in general. Looking only at the modes listed under the Mode menu some only have a name (e.g. Draw) and some have an additional mode, yet again, some with small and other with capital first letter.
Additionally, the buttons in the EditToolbar do not show the name but only the short description of the mode as tooltip. Here the solution could be to include the name in the tooltip (new ticket ?!).

With my changes, I used the name of the mode as the page title and added the short description as first sentence. Using lasso selection mode and rectangular selection mode emphasizes more on the difference between these two modes but on the other hand hides even more all the other selection modes and actions which both working modes have in common (as I just tried to document).

[stoecker]

Replying to skyper:

Unfortunately, names across JOSM are pretty inconsistent, in general.

Jupp. That happens when development is done over such a long time by changing people. Whenever it is possible I try to fix such issues. Now with the script which allows to keep translations when texts change that may be a bit easier than before.

[HeiKue]

Please see #24191 double "mode" in mode menu

Replying to skyper:

Unfortunately, names across JOSM are pretty inconsistent, in general. Looking only at the modes listed under the Mode menu some only have a name (e.g. Draw) and some have an additional mode, yet again, some with small and other with capital first letter.
Additionally, the buttons in the EditToolbar do not show the name but only the short description of the mode as tooltip. Here the solution could be to include the name in the tooltip (new ticket ?!).
With my changes, I used the name of the mode as the page title and added the short description as first sentence.

Please see #24190 inconsistent structure of action help pages (page title etc.)
I think we should keep the tool tips consistent with the action help pages and with the structure of the other tool tips.
Tool tip = short description without action name at the beginning

Using lasso selection mode and rectangular selection mode emphasizes more on the difference between these two modes but on the other hand hides even more all the other selection modes and actions which both working modes have in common (as I just tried to document).

I just wanted to point out the inconsistency.
I would prefer select mode and lasso mode - short and sweet :-)
And as stated before, lasso selection mode should be completely removed from tool tip.

[HeiKue]

Replying to skyper:

I made my changes regarding Lasso mode: diff

I tested Ctrl + Double left mouse click and it is not always working to me in each situation.
Sometimes nothing happens, and sometimes more than one are deselected.
I have not found a rule as to why JOSM does what it does.
Is this an official and tested feature?