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Opened 8 months ago

Last modified 8 months ago

#18815 new defect

"waterway=canal" + "tunnel=yes" is valid !

Reported by: verdyp@… Owned by: team
Priority: normal Milestone:
Component: Core validator Version:
Keywords: waterway canal tunnel Cc: francois.lacombe

Description

A canal may be under a tunnel (here at layer -1, below a large railway on the ground level without embankment), like other waterways. See the attached screenshot.

A canal may also be built to pass over a bridge (various examples in France, like Canal du Midi, or elsewhere).

Why does JOSM signal it as "suspect" ? What would be suspect and would need to be signaled is only if a canal cross another highway or waterway or railway, at the same layer (the implied layer is 0 if not specified), and without any intersection node appropriately tagged for their crossing (But this is not the case here).

Attachments (4)

Annotation 2020-02-29 162819.png (549.7 KB) - added by verdyp@… 8 months ago.
a valid canal in a tunnel below a railway
tunnel_waterway_example.jpg (556.4 KB) - added by skyper 8 months ago.
open waterway in tunnel and covered before
tunnel_waterway_example2.jpg (464.3 KB) - added by skyper 8 months ago.
tunnel with open waterway
bridge_waterway_example.jpg (659.4 KB) - added by skyper 8 months ago.
waterway on bridge

Change History (22)

Changed 8 months ago by verdyp@…

a valid canal in a tunnel below a railway

comment:1 Changed 8 months ago by Don-vip

Keywords: waterway canal tunnel added

comment:2 Changed 8 months ago by Don-vip

Cc: francois.lacombe added

Rule comes from r13972 / #16147

comment:3 Changed 8 months ago by francois.lacombe

Example from Verdyp should be tagged tunnel=culvert

Tunnel=yes means the tunnel is safely accessible by human in operation
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Waterway_pipeline_in_tunnel.png

Last edited 8 months ago by francois.lacombe (previous) (diff)

comment:4 Changed 8 months ago by verdyp@…

There are various examples of canals inside tunnels, notably in dense cities (e.g. the Canal Saint-Martin, in Paris, France, has several tunnelled sections). This also occurs for rivers (e.g. the Vilaine in Rennes, France).

comment:5 Changed 8 months ago by anonymous

The "culvert" is not applicable everywhere if there are no "busards"; culverts are too narrow and have too low depth, and so are normally not navigatable, this would remain a canal.

The Canal Saint-Martin in Paris is really navigatable

comment:6 Changed 8 months ago by francois.lacombe

Indeed Canal Saint Martin is a good example and it could possibly considered safe to access it in operation
https://www.1843magazine.com/content/places/going-souterrain

It's not the case of almost canals going through railways or roads, the water fills the whole section of the culvert.

A good option could be to ask for access=* on waterway=* + tunnel=yes to force users to think about how the structure can be accessed (and sometime discover human can't go inside - so validation error for waterway=* + tunnel=yes + access=no)
Goog value for Canal Saint Martin could be waterway=canal + tunnel=yes + access=private

comment:7 Changed 8 months ago by anonymous

The Canal Saint-Martin in Paris is used by any boat (notably "péniches", with heavy loads, and excursion boats), it is definitely not "private" (it is regulated like other canals).

There are even public pathways below the built surface along the canal...

comment:8 Changed 8 months ago by francois.lacombe

Public pathways, oh really ? :)

Then access=yes, no problem

I just don't want this to be described with tunnel=yes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Waterway_drain_outlet.jpg

comment:9 Changed 8 months ago by skyper

Have a look at Madeira.

comment:10 Changed 8 months ago by francois.lacombe

Thank you for examples

No problem with the bridge

If Levada actually runs in tunnels, it should be described with tunnel=flooded or tunnel=culvert as I understand the configuration in place
Do you eventually have pictures please?

Changed 8 months ago by skyper

Attachment: tunnel_waterway_example.jpg added

open waterway in tunnel and covered before

Changed 8 months ago by skyper

tunnel with open waterway

comment:11 in reply to:  description ; Changed 8 months ago by Hb---

Replying to verdyp@…:

See the attached screenshot.

With JOSM r15958 I do not get any warning for osmwww:way/227778561. Please provide a situation that fits to the current release.

Last edited 8 months ago by skyper (previous) (diff)

Changed 8 months ago by skyper

Attachment: bridge_waterway_example.jpg added

waterway on bridge

comment:12 Changed 8 months ago by francois.lacombe

Ok @skyper this is definitely waterway=canal + tunnel=yes + access=yes

comment:13 Changed 8 months ago by verdyp@…

Note that given your advice, I have changed it AFTER myu initial comment to tunnel=culvert (this is not the same case as canal Saint-Martin in Paris where this is definitely not a culvert as there are pathways inside the tunnel on the same level as outdoor sections of the same canal).

I got the warning when it was tunnel=yes.

Waterway running along bridges also exist. They should all be canals, even if they were built to canalize the waters of a natural river, whose course was changed to avoid falling down; there may be examples where the bridge was built along the natural course while at the same time digging a large area below it, possibly to connect urbanized areas or to extend a lake created by a dam elsewhere or to extend an harbour, but did not find any example; one reason would be to preserve the natural flow of the river passing over this enlarged area).

comment:14 in reply to:  11 Changed 8 months ago by Klumbumbus

Replying to Hb---:

With JOSM r15958 I do not get any warning for osmwww:way/227778561.

Because the screenshot uses tunnel=yes and the current osm object tunnel=culvert.

:-)

Last edited 8 months ago by Hb--- (previous) (diff)

comment:15 Changed 8 months ago by verdyp@…

For an example of a river in a tunnel, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/70292145
(Actually the river is canalized, but boats can go under it, even leasure boats).

Above this tunnel there's a parkings, trees, and a large pedestrian area...
But there's no pathway below the tunnel which is entirely and permanently flooded; navigation is not restricted (except by maxheight); the level of waters is controled by lock gates along the river (upstream and downstream) and its canalized tributary (L'Ille).

The tunnel was built by covering the river in the 1960's.

@Hb--: Note that my snapshot was accurate for the situation, and clearly showed the situation when it was tunnel=yes (as seen in the snapshot itself, with "tunnel=yes" tag highlighted in yellow)... so your comment was junk.

comment:16 Changed 8 months ago by anonymous

Also I changed tunnel=covered, but gave a warning: there's no restriction boat=no, so I'm not sure that boats cannot go below it. If they can (there's enough depth, and the tunnel is not fully under water because the level of waters in the canal is controled by locks), then this is definitely not a "culvert".

comment:17 Changed 8 months ago by anonymous

Here is an example of a canal over a bridge (also subtagged as an "bridge=aqueduct")

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/97458482

The canal-bridge was built to avoid flooding the small river under it that it passes through.

Another similar example on the same canal:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/61744550#map=19/43.23771/2.37322

(there's also a parallel bridge for a road)

Also:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/97382615

(it passes over a small stream)

Same case:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/200927913

Over a larger river:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/30498554

etc...

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