[Patch] Include mofa moped allowed traffic on barriers.

[Allroads]

Every transportation mode have the right of good routing possibilities in OSM, I think.
But when editors do not mention them, this is very negative for these transportation mode in routing.
It is counter productive, multiplied by a factor x.

As people forget, did not get the hint, to set the tags correct for these transportation modes.

The effect is that, this is a big disadvantage for these transportation modes. And should be avoided.
There is a minority of these transportation mode active on OSM. This minority get more, more work, to set it correct.

A editor must not facilitate that, must make a good play field.

mofa and moped must be mentioned in presets as allowed traffic.
In the access hierarchy there stand along transportation mode.
"mofa, moped" are equally important.

[skyper]

Many barrier presets could include more tags, not only access. How about some words about implied tags. I'll try to come up with a patch.

[skyper]

I am thinking about:

• Adding information about implied access tags for each preset.
• Icons for the checks
• A preset link to "Road Restrictions" or the access part of it if split.
• Splitting "Road Restrictions" into "Access Restrictions" and "Road Restrictions"

[Allroads]

I am working on a JOSM style.
Need to rebuild it. Starting something, this can be better, so ....................far from ready, old one still working.
​Road extended style info
Why, I made mistakes, did not see tags. Made a set of barrier icons and with access icons visualized next to them in the mapcss

Probably you saw some tickets of me to get the job done. How I like to visualise, was not working/possible, time gives new possibilities. So I need to dig into that.
node barrier, bollard all the access_tags possible example.​imageAlso conditional hints, C or @. Hints, select and see. But also working on a legend inside mapcss, on none edit zoomlevel.
But there are a lot tags possible on node and way.

​forum with more images.

I split signs now in traffic_sign and access_sign.
traffic_sign, have traffic laws.
access_sign how you should behave, have different laws. (Written text from private owners)
for example access_sign=NL:SBB Staatsbosbeheer as the operator.
​overpass

So, I made a split into Terrain with roads "Access Restrictions" and "Road Restrictions"

I am sorry for the late respond, family needed more time.

[skyper]

The problem with the icons is, that I fear, I will not get a complete set of small and nice .svg images but, maybe, you can give me a hint where to search for.

[Allroads]

I deliberately made bigger icons to stand out for control reason. More recognizable. Size different on zoom levels. My approach is different.

And I have a barrier "else" icon, all not visualised barrier value, so that you know there is a barrier key, but with a different value (maybe wrong written) So watch out, when you see a yellow E.
This is for me a important controle function, see, knowing there are tags, do not move the wayline node.

Earlier, I searched for icons set, (more) complete set, I did not find it.

Carto set. Is I think the closet, that we have. small icon
​barrierpage
And the already in JOSM used symbols.

Did search "value" image small svg. (searchengine image search)Free licensed images. Not uniform example.

Ended up making my own.

​github member set

[skyper]

I was taking about icons for the different transport modes next to the check boxes not for the barriers themselves.

[Allroads]

I ended up with taking the transportation modes of traffic signs. To make a more uniform set, I have to redo some, all icons must facing to the left. (later, to express the wayline draw direction, forward)

I did a ​transportation icon search

​landbased osm wiki
Not a uniform set. (mixed bag)

For me Double-tracked, must be introduced ( beter multi-tracked) to solve tagging conflict problems for the two and more tracked group and individual transportation mode (car) and new icons, like speed_pedelec, bicycle class (in other countries it is a moped class), if government write these (text) on undersigns (prohibited/allowed), we have to tag them.

[skyper]

Klumbumbus:

In 16743/josm:
fix #18698 - split Road Restrictions preset in Road Restrictions and Access Restrictions

[skyper]

preview with some access icons

[skyper]

A preview of what I have in mind. Would be nice to be able to add an icons to the combos, aswell, see #19554.

[skyper]

bus_trap icon from ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Barrier_bus_trap.svg (PD)

[Klumbumbus]

Thanks, but it doesn't render so well without imagery background ;)

[anonymous]

Replying to Klumbumbus:

Thanks, but it doesn't render so well without imagery background ;)

Damn, just found it and the icon is missing. Need a icon for moped, too. So I have my eyes open.

[Allroads]

In Amsterdam they use for mofa this icon on official traffic signs
​Site Amsterdam

The one for moped is from the official traffic sign, which I used in my style example.

[skyper]

first patch, still miss some icons

[skyper]

I have attached first version of a possible patch, josm_17750.patch​., which:

• adds links to "Access Restrictions" preset
• adds more access checkboxes with icons
• adds some optional tags (all already in presets) like maxheight
• adds barrier=height_restrictor ​wiki

Still missing are icons for moped=*, barrier=bus_trap and barrier=height_restrictor. Hope I gonna find/make some this week.

I was unsure about adding:

• ​Tag:barrier=log
• ​Tag:barrier=sliding_gate
• ​Tag:barrier=full-height_turnstile
• ​Tag:barrier=debris

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to skyper:

Still missing are icons for moped=*

from this one? ​https://publicdomainvectors.org/en/free-clipart/No-mopeds-road-sign-vector-image/14430.html

[skyper]

Icons from ​https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Symbols_of_road_signs_of_Germany all PD

[skyper]

version 2 not adding any new tag

[skyper]

Replying to Klumbumbus:

Replying to skyper:

Still missing are icons for moped=*

from this one? ​https://publicdomainvectors.org/en/free-clipart/No-mopeds-road-sign-vector-image/14430.html

There is a difference in common use of "moped" and the road sign names and the use in OSM. Moped in common use is closer to mofa=* in OSM.

I've downloaded all icons from ​commons.wikimedia.org, again. Was not sure from where I had originally downloaded them. Now they are all under Public Domain. Found an icon for moped.

Find patch version 2, without the new tag barrier=height_restrictor. This can be committed. Gonna come up with a new ticket for the new tags.

Replying to Allroads:

In Amsterdam they use for mofa this icon on official traffic signs
​Site Amsterdam

I like this one, though, the definition is a bit different on the wiki if you consider it for moped instead of mofa. Saddly, a quick search for scooter did not bring a useful result. I decided to use

The one for moped is from the official traffic sign, which I used in my style example.

That is the common mofa sign, not for moped

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to skyper:

without the new tag barrier=height_restrictor. This can be committed. Gonna come up with a new ticket for the new tags.

Thx.

[Allroads]

This is the icon of the traffic sign in 20px.

In the Netherlands this is a moped.

By law, a NL "snorfiets" mofa is also a moped, but it is a subcategory (less speed).

A mofa mostly have smaller wheels then a moped.
20px

The difference is now more obvious then with the wiki icons.
​wiki mofa moped icon
Maybe we should change the wiki.

[skyper]

@ Allroads:
The problem of your suggestions is the file type. We need .svg vector graphics.

If changed the moped should have the bigger engine / body parts as is it is the more powerful vehicle.

[skyper]

check license; from ​https://game-icons.net/1x1/delapouite/scooter.html

[skyper]

check license; from ​https://www.onlinewebfonts.com/icon/9485

[skyper]

Here is what I found:

• PD, ​https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Icon_scooter.svg

I am not sure about the license of the following

• CC-BY 3.0, ​https://game-icons.net/1x1/delapouite/scooter.html
• free ?, ​https://www.onlinewebfonts.com/icon/9485

[Allroads]

The mofa I made this drawing and for me it could be used in public domain.

16px:

The moped I made the drawing and for me it could be used in public domain.

16px:

[Klumbumbus]

In 16801/josm:

• fix #17750 - Add more access tags to barrier presets including icons for checks (new plain icons from ​https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Symbols_of_road_signs_of_Germany, all PD and CC0 licensed, patch by skyper)
• add icon for barrier=bus_trap (from ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Barrier_bus_trap.svg, modified, PD and CC0 licensed)
• unify red color of traffic signs

[Klumbumbus]

From the patch I changed "Type of lift gate" and "Type of swing gate" to simply "Type" (less translation work) and moved the icons to another file.

As for the mofa and moped icons I preferred the ones from skyper as these are the same as on ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation

[skyper]

Replying to Klumbumbus:

From the patch I changed "Type of lift gate" and "Type of swing gate" to simply "Type" (less translation work) and moved the icons to another file.

As for the mofa and moped icons I preferred the ones from skyper as these are the same as on ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation

That is not fair, I personally added moped to the wiki, yesterday, and would have changed it according to JOSM. For the wiki CC0 should not be a problem or is it?

Personally, I would prefer one of and but this can be changed, anytime. 16px: and

[skyper]

Oh, we introduced bicycle=dismount which is on the ignorelist.

[Klumbumbus]

It was rejected in the end in #9158.

[Klumbumbus]

In 16803/josm:

see #17750 - Remove controversial bicycle=dismount

[skyper]

I took bicycle=dismount from ​osmwiki:Tag:barrier=cycle_barrier#Bicycle_access but the numbers are low (< 2%) as it is not listed at ​taginfo:tags/?key=barrier&value=cycle_barrier#combinations. We should remove it from the wiki page.

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to skyper:

That is not fair, I personally added moped to the wiki, yesterday

I didn't notice that.
I'm fine with a scooter style icon too. Then I would prefer so far because different from the two others, the license and rendering at 16px is fine.

[skyper]

Replying to Klumbumbus:

Replying to skyper:

That is not fair, I personally added moped to the wiki, yesterday

I didn't notice that.
I'm fine with a scooter style icon too. Then I would prefer so far because different from the two others, the license and rendering at 16px is fine.

No problem, go ahead. It is just an icon and not hard to change it again, once I find a nicer icon.

@Allroads:
May I ask you, to upload your icon to the OSM wiki or commons.wikimedia.org, that we can use it on ​osmwiki:Key:access. Thanks in advance.

[Allroads]

The wiki icon choice are made, a long time ago for mofa, based on country information.

But the new moped and mofa used on the road today. How do they look.

The big difference for me is the wheel size, and that I do not see back in the icon choice.
Category moped have on average bigger wheelsize.
For me this is a mofa because of the smaller wheel size.

A scooter have character for easy going, that match more with the lowspeed expression for mofa.

Look at the motorcycle categories, chopper, scooter, touring, adventure, sportsbike,etc.
There the scooter for easy going, around the block image, not that fast appearance, has also small wheel in comparison to touring/adventure.

For the same ratio should apply to mofa / moped.

When I do a browser search snorfiets (mofa) bromfiets (moped)
Lots of overlap.
Bromfiets (moped) you see images of moped that looks like motorcycle, sportsbikes, 125 250 machines.
In real sometimes the size matches. you must look good to see the difference.
Express more speed.
This I do not find in the mofa search.

Why does a city of Amsterdam choose such a icon for snorfiets (mofa)?

Unfortunately, that there is no comparison of ​EU roads sign for moped to give us guidance.
You see a motorcycle is mostly with a rider.

For me the wiki mofa icon should be discussed.
Okay, this is not the place to do it.

Of course presets and wiki must match.

commons.wikimedia.org
If I upload it, I do that as a mofa filename. Like a moped it goes against my feeling

[aceman]

Replying to skyper:

I took bicycle=dismount from ​osmwiki:Tag:barrier=cycle_barrier#Bicycle_access but the numbers are low (< 2%) as it is not listed at ​taginfo:tags/?key=barrier&value=cycle_barrier#combinations. We should remove it from the wiki page.

Why should dismount be removed from anywhere? Maybe it does not apply to cycle_barrier, even though I do not undestand why couldn't it, but it does apply to footways and such, there definitely is a traffic sign for this value in some countries.

[skyper]

Replying to aceman:

Replying to skyper:

I took bicycle=dismount from ​osmwiki:Tag:barrier=cycle_barrier#Bicycle_access but the numbers are low (< 2%) as it is not listed at ​taginfo:tags/?key=barrier&value=cycle_barrier#combinations. We should remove it from the wiki page.

Why should dismount be removed from anywhere? Maybe it does not apply to cycle_barrier, even though I do not undestand why couldn't it, but it does apply to footways and such, there definitely is a traffic sign for this value in some countries.

It seems to be valid only in certain countries. In Germany there is no rule for it and bicycle=no means, you are not allowed to drive. Pushing a bicycle counts as pedestrian. On private property the rules might be different but than we need a tag like push_vehicle=no.

For cycle_barrier it is even makes less sense as either bicycles are allowed or not but what should dismount mean. I rather understood it as it is not possible to drive through but this is really suspicious as it depends on too many factors like width and length of the vehicle and the driving skills. That and cause of low numbers are reasons why I would remove it from the barrier wiki page, but let`s discuss it on the wiki talk page.