[Patch] New power plant specification

[francois.lacombe@…]

As accepted by vote last June 11, power=plant tag was introduced to map power plants.

​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_generation_refinement

It would be great to add this tag to JOSM presets as "Power plant" with standards attributes as described in proposal.

Furthermore, power=generator was modified to better match devices which convert power from one kind to another.

Many thanks to add these two tags as presets.

[skyper]

• Do we need validator warnings about any deprecations ?
• Do you have any nice icons (.svg preferred, png OK), maybe also for mappaint ?
• Do we need to update the internal mappaint style ?

[francois.lacombe]

Do we need validator warnings about any deprecations ?

• power=station is deprecated for power plant mapping ONLY. This tag can also refer to power substation, where power is switched and transformed.
• power=generator is dedicated to devices which convert power, it used to refer the whole production site but not any more.

=> All that rules have a proper meaning in osmose than in JOSM validator, but they can be added if devs want.

Do you have any nice icons (.svg preferred, png OK), maybe also for mappaint ?

Not currently but let's have a look here : ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_generation_refinement#Generator_types

Do we need to update the internal mappaint style ?

In my mind I would paint all the power=* stuff in light yellow, but it would enter a bit in conflict with barrier=* features.
It's up to dev leads.

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe@…:

Do we need validator warnings about any deprecations ?

• power=station is deprecated for power plant mapping ONLY. This tag can also refer to power substation, where power is switched and transformed.

power=station is still in internal presets, so we need to remove it and a validator warning to suggest "checking and using either power=plant or power=sub_station.

Do you have any nice icons (.svg preferred, png OK), maybe also for mappaint ?

Not currently but let's have a look here : ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_generation_refinement#Generator_types

Might be ok for preset but I am not sure about mappaint.

Do we need to update the internal mappaint style ?

In my mind I would paint all the power=* stuff in light yellow, but it would enter a bit in conflict with barrier=* features.
It's up to dev leads.

Did you test the external style for power ?

[skyper]

patch

[skyper]

I did attach a patch​ which removes power=station and introduces power=plant. I did some rework on power=generator but I am not sure about the values for generator:method=*.

We have still problems with good example values for frequency=* and voltage=*. Especially no difference between power, railway and communication is made, so far.

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to skyper:

power=station is still in internal presets, so we need to remove it and a validator warning to suggest "checking and using either power=plant or power=sub_station.

Ok.
In few month you may be able to remove it completely if ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Substation_refinement is accepted (but there will be another ticket for that).

Might be ok for preset but I am not sure about mappaint.

Ok too.
These icons are not for mappaint.

Did you test the external style for power ?

No. Where I can do this ?

Replying to skyper:

I did attach a patch​ which removes power=station and introduces power=plant. I did some rework on power=generator but I am not sure about the values for generator:method=*.

Nice work, thanks.
I'm almost ok with the new version of the file.

Some comments :

• power=plant can't be assigned to a node, according to wiki : ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dplant
• generator:output:battery_charging=* isn't valid and I've removed it because battery_charging isn't a kind of power.
• generator:method=anaerobic_digestion isn't in the wiki. ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:method
• Values "low", "medium" & "high" should be added to the presets for voltage=* key. Do we need to specify other values (there are many more different values all around the world). Nevertheless it's still in a proposal ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement

We have still problems with good example values for frequency=* and voltage=*. Especially no difference between power, railway and communication is made, so far.

Indeed, no difference between power, rail and communication. Both are mainly numerical values, what kind of example do you want to see ?

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe@…:

Replying to skyper:

power=station is still in internal presets, so we need to remove it and a validator warning to suggest "checking and using either power=plant or power=sub_station.

Ok.
In few month you may be able to remove it completely if ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Substation_refinement is accepted (but there will be another ticket for that).

I see, no warnings for now

@team:
Do we really need it in presets ?

Might be ok for preset but I am not sure about mappaint.

Ok too.
These icons are not for mappaint.

Did you test the external style for power ?

No. Where I can do this ?

Under preferences, third tab on the left and then second tab on the top. Fastest way to get there through map style toggle dialog.

Replying to skyper:

I did attach a patch​ which removes power=station and introduces power=plant. I did some rework on power=generator but I am not sure about the values for generator:method=*.

Nice work, thanks.
I'm almost ok with the new version of the file.

Some comments :

• power=plant can't be assigned to a node, according to wiki : ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dplant

Ok.

• generator:output:battery_charging=* isn't valid and I've removed it because battery_charging isn't a kind of power.

Ok. We should deprecate this one, only used ~50 times, so far.

• generator:method=anaerobic_digestion isn't in the wiki. ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:method

Problem is that ​taginfo shows some methods not mentioned on the English wiki page plus the table is incomplete as you do not get a clue that you do not need it for some sources (e.g. wind). The table on the proposal page is much better.

As some values need to be adjusted on JOSM preset we should also suggest a different tag through validator. Will be no problem with pumped-storage -> water-pumped-storage but I am not sure about the others (anaerobic_digestion, dam, pyrolysis, pumping)

• Values "low", "medium" & "high" should be added to the presets for voltage=* key. Do we need to specify other values (there are many more different values all around the world). Nevertheless it's still in a proposal ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement

Yes some major used examples which cover the range are useful.

We have still problems with good example values for frequency=* and voltage=*. Especially no difference between power, railway and communication is made, so far.

Indeed, no difference between power, rail and communication. Both are mainly numerical values, what kind of example do you want to see ?

As above, we need some valid values which cover the range as examples, nonsense should be avoided and I want to give a hint about the dimension.

[skyper]

patch version 2

[skyper]

Added second version​.

Still need suggestions on voltage values for power=line/minor_line/sub_station/cable_distribution_cabinet and have a problem: #6990. E.g. either multiselect or manual edit.

fixed a typo in docs.

EDT: Maybe we should use short_info to point the user to the right methods and types.

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to skyper:

Under preferences, third tab on the left and then second tab on the top. Fastest way to get there through map style toggle dialog.

Ok I've tested it but it doesn't seem to take care of power=plant nor power=generator which are grey when power=line is in blue.

Problem is that ​taginfo shows some methods not mentioned on the English wiki page plus the table is incomplete as you do not get a clue that you do not need it for some sources (e.g. wind). The table on the proposal page is much better.

Yeah the table on the proposal page aims to give an exhaustive list.
Nevertheless, it's hard to be exhaustive at world scale, users should be able to choose in a presets lists but to set ther own values too if nothing suits their needs. Is that possible in JOSM ?

As some values need to be adjusted on JOSM preset we should also suggest a different tag through validator. Will be no problem with pumped-storage -> water-pumped-storage but I am not sure about the others (anaerobic_digestion, dam, pyrolysis, pumping)

anaerobic_digestion => never heard of it.
dam => water-storage
pyrolysis => never heard of it
pumping => water-pumped-storage

Yes some major used examples which cover the range are useful.

Like types/methods, it's hard to be exhaustive on voltages at world scale.
But you can have a look to electricity distribution map on ITO world where map key gives a lot of common values.
​http://www.itoworld.com/map/4

In a nutshell, from 0 to 1150000

As above, we need some valid values which cover the range as examples, nonsense should be avoided and I want to give a hint about the dimension.

Ok. Let's have a look to frequencies on power networks :

• frequency=0 : DC current, mainly train feeders or high voltage power transit.
• frequency=50 : AEG power standard, mainly used in Europe.
• frequency=60 : Westinghouse power standard, mainly used in USA and Japan I think.

Feel free to ask if you need anything more precise.

One more thing, some stuff on power=* may be deprecated shortly due to proposals in progress.
power=minor_line
power=cable
power=small_distribution_cabinet
power=underground_cable
power=sub_station
power=station
power=minor_underground_line
Working on presets for them is not very useful unless you want to provide stable presets at any time.

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe@…:

Replying to skyper:

Under preferences, third tab on the left and then second tab on the top. Fastest way to get there through map style toggle dialog.

Ok I've tested it but it doesn't seem to take care of power=plant nor power=generator which are grey when power=line is in blue.

Seems to me, we need to adjust mappaint.

Problem is that ​taginfo shows some methods not mentioned on the English wiki page plus the table is incomplete as you do not get a clue that you do not need it for some sources (e.g. wind). The table on the proposal page is much better.

Yeah the table on the proposal page aims to give an exhaustive list.

I did add sources without method and also added the types, please have a look.

Nevertheless, it's hard to be exhaustive at world scale, users should be able to choose in a presets lists but to set their own values too if nothing suits their needs. Is that possible in JOSM ?

That is exactly the problem for multiselect list right now. See #6990. It would be useful for method and is needed for voltage.

As some values need to be adjusted on JOSM preset we should also suggest a different tag through validator. Will be no problem with pumped-storage -> water-pumped-storage but I am not sure about the others (anaerobic_digestion, dam, pyrolysis, pumping)

anaerobic_digestion => never heard of it.
dam => water-storage
pyrolysis => never heard of it
pumping => water-pumped-storage

Thanks, we need warnings with suggestions then or even an auto change, as JOSM did introduce many of these tags.

Wiki pages in other languages need to be updated !

Yes some major used examples which cover the range are useful.

Like types/methods, it's hard to be exhaustive on voltages at world scale.
But you can have a look to electricity distribution map on ITO world where map key gives a lot of common values.
​http://www.itoworld.com/map/4

In a nutshell, from 0 to 1150000

Thanks, but what are the numbers for minor_line (< 135000) and cable_distribution_cabinet ?

As above, we need some valid values which cover the range as examples, nonsense should be avoided and I want to give a hint about the dimension.

Ok. Let's have a look to frequencies on power networks :

• frequency=0 : DC current, mainly train feeders or high voltage power transit.
• frequency=50 : AEG power standard, mainly used in Europe.
• frequency=60 : Westinghouse power standard, mainly used in USA and Japan I think.

Feel free to ask if you need anything more precise.

Think we are missing the power circuits for railways (16.7, 16.67 ?) or do they use transformers right at the rails ?

One more thing, some stuff on power=* may be deprecated shortly due to proposals in progress.

[...]

Working on presets for them is not very useful unless you want to provide stable presets at any time.

I know and did only make minor corrections. We need to adjust presets all the time and power=* needed some updates. We definitely need to update parts once more after your proposals are accepted or in major use.

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to skyper:

Seems to me, we need to adjust mappaint.

I would suggest to use this simple rule :

• generation = yellow
• transmission = blue
• substation = green

with hatches for areas.

I did add sources without method and also added the types, please have a look.

Ok for me.

That is exactly the problem for multiselect list right now. See #6990. It would be useful for method and is needed for voltage.

Indeed. So we have to wait this global problem to be solved.

Thanks, we need warnings with suggestions then or even an auto change, as JOSM did introduce many of these tags.

Ok.

Wiki pages in other languages need to be updated !

Yes. But I don't especially have time for translation works :(
I'll post on talk to announce this.

Thanks, but what are the numbers for minor_line (< 135000) and cable_distribution_cabinet ?

Minor_line is below 45 kV, we can arbitrarily keep 45000, 20000, 15000, 750, 400, 220, 110.
minor_line and cable_distribution_cabinet will be deprecated soon.

Think we are missing the power circuits for railways (16.7, 16.67 ?) or do they use transformers right at the rails ?

We're missing it and they're using transformers at the rails but this value can be useful so it must be added to the presets.

I know and did only make minor corrections. We need to adjust presets all the time and power=* needed some updates. We definitely need to update parts once more after your proposals are accepted or in major use.

Ok. Thanks for your nice work :)

[skyper]

My opinion is that a combo is better as you can add values manually. Multiselect has to wait till #6990 is solved.

@team:
Still no answer/opinion about deprecating power=station. Note: It is already marked as deprecated on the wiki.

EDT: Try to work over and upload a patch the next days.

[Don-vip]

+1 for deprecation but I'm not neutral as I am the original writer of the proposal. I'd be glad to hear another opinions :-)

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to Don-vip:

+1 for deprecation but I'm not neutral as I am the original writer of the proposal. I'd be glad to hear another opinions :-)

+1 too. But as Don-vip, I'm not neutral since I'm the second writer of the proposal :)
Please note that power=sub_station is more used than power=station and power=plant is now here to map power plants.
It would be good to remove it from JOSM IMHO.

[skyper]

version 3

[skyper]

version 3 without power=station

[skyper]

I did upload a new version: version 3​ and version 3 (without power=station)​

Last remaining issue from my side:

Replying to francois.lacombe@…:

Replying to skyper:

As some values need to be adjusted on JOSM preset we should also suggest a different tag through validator. Will be no problem with pumped-storage -> water-pumped-storage but I am not sure about the others (anaerobic_digestion, dam, pyrolysis, pumping)

anaerobic_digestion => never heard of it.

Have a look at ​wikipedia.

pyrolysis => never heard of it

Also at ​wikipedia.
Can you tell me which source and type are useful for these methodes ?

In a nutshell, from 0 to 1150000

I added all values from ito + did clean up railway=*.

[skyper]

As there was no comment against removing, could we get the patch without station in next week stable release and introduce the validator changes next release ?

Is there anything left I need to change ?

[francois.lacombe]

Thanks for your work skyper :)

I think we miss nothing in presets.

Maybe you want to refine a bit the JOSM power colorization scheme too ?
-> We can wait for power transmission refinement to be voted to do so, otherwise.

[skyper]

ping

[bastiK]

In 6136/josm:

applied #8847 - New power plant specification (patch by skyper)

[skyper]

Thanks, I did open #8961 for the validator part eg. deprecated tags.

[Don-vip]

In 6138/josm:

see #8847, fix #8961 - rendering of power=plant, deprecation of power=station

[francois.lacombe]

Many thanks guys.

[bastiK]

Hi francois and skyper,

We usually do not link images in the preset, but include all images in the main JOSM binary (*.jar file).

<list_entry value="biofuel" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6b/Bahnpirat-power_source-biofuel.svg" />
<list_entry value="biogas" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6b/Bahnpirat-power_source-biofuel.svg" />
<list_entry value="biomass" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6b/Bahnpirat-power_source-biofuel.svg" />
<list_entry value="coal" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/4/4b/Bahnpirat-power_source-coal.svg" />
<list_entry value="diesel" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/f7/Bahnpirat-power_source-oil.svg" />
<list_entry value="gas" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/e6/Bahnpirat-power_source-gas.svg" />
<list_entry value="gasoline" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/f7/Bahnpirat-power_source-oil.svg" />
<list_entry value="geothermal" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ed/2020_stBN_powergensource_water.svg" />
<list_entry value="hydro" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ed/2020_stBN_powergensource_water.svg" />
<list_entry value="nuclear" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/3/3e/2020_stBN_powergensource_nuclear.svg" />
<list_entry value="oil" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/f7/Bahnpirat-power_source-oil.svg" />
<list_entry value="osmotic" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ed/2020_stBN_powergensource_water.svg" />
<list_entry value="solar" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/22/2020_stBN_powergensource_sun.svg" />
<list_entry value="tidal" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ed/2020_stBN_powergensource_water.svg" />
<list_entry value="waste" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/2f/Bahnpirat-power_source-waste.svg" />
<list_entry value="wave" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ed/2020_stBN_powergensource_water.svg" />
<list_entry value="wind" icon="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/0/03/2020_stBN_powergensource_wind.svg" />

Could you please ask the author, if the images can be distributed along with the JOSM code (GPL2+)? Otherwise we'd simply remove the icons for now. (see #9607)

[Don-vip]

I have contacted Bahnpirat on OSM wiki, let's see his response to close this ticket before releasing new tested.

EDIT: Got his answer, it is based on work of User:Sergionaranja, I have contacted him as well, let's see.

[simon04]

Is the inclusion of icons of this preset via URL a blocker for the 14.01 release? I mean this has been part of the 5 past releases as well …

[Don-vip]

Replying to simon04:

Is the inclusion of icons of this preset via URL a blocker for the 14.01 release? I mean this has been part of the 5 past releases as well …

No. I was hoping for a positive answer today in order to have a clean release but I'm releasing now. We'll treat this problem in 14.02 via #9607.

[Sergionaranja]

hi
the author of 2020iconset here.
in the code of the .svg icons
there is a public domain statement
or ccBY, or should be.
use as you please.

take them from here
​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Icons/Map_Icons_Standards
(at the end of page)

[Klumbumbus]

In 14780/josm:

fix #17317, see #8847 - fix typo in tidal generator preset: steam -> stream