[PATCH] Add `man_made=utility_pole` to presets

[taylor.smock]

Current usage is >20,000 (mostly in the past year -- see ​https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=utility_pole#chronology ).

Current patch notes:

• Reuses the icon for power=pole in presets
• Adds two new chunks
  • utilities for presets that share utility keys
  • pole for pole-like objects (height, material, and ref_operator)
• Adds the utility_pole preset

Note: Patch is now being tracked at ​https://gitlab.com/smocktaylor/josm/-/merge_requests/4

[taylor.smock]

Add man_made=utility_pole to presets

[taylor.smock]

For the different pole icon, I'm thinking one of two different options:
1) Modify the power pole icon to have a different surrounding color (probably white)
2) Use ​https://github.com/mapillary/mapillary_sprite_source/blob/master/package_objects/object--support--utility-pole.svg with some modifications (MIT licensed)

[taylor.smock]

Possible pole icon (same as powerpole, just with a white halo)

[taylor.smock]

4 week keep-alive ping (oops).

Which pole icon would be preferred? This is going to affect the name of the icon (and hence the final patch). If I use the one from Mapillary, I'm going to keep the filename as object--support--utility-pole.svg, while if I use the modified powerpole.svg icon, I would use the generic pole.svg.

[francois.lacombe]

Hi all

This value is going through a formal proposal which is currently in RFC state
​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Utility_poles_proposal

Shouldn't we wait vote to occur as to not have to change the preset right after?

Feel free to comment the proposal is you have input for it
That's great to see useful icon for that as well, thank you

All the best

[taylor.smock]

I was not aware that there was a proposal for it.

It does, however, have a non-proposal wiki page ( ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dutility_pole ), which indicates that the tag status is in use.

Also, as far as I can tell, the proposal is ~7 years newer than the Tag:man_made=utility_pole page, but better and more well-defined documentation is always welcome.

[francois.lacombe]

Yeah I'm aware of the Tag page and it indeed exists since many years.

The proposal is here to encourage a formal discussion about how this value may be useful and with which tags it should be combined.
There may be kind of confusion between power=pole and more general man_made=utility_pole.

This proposal won't deprecate man_made=utility_pole but encourage it actually so it won't cause any harm to add a preset to JOSM prior to vote
Some problems could occur with combined tags and power=pole duplicity and it could impact on preset and validation rules.
As power=pole isn't a really good power value, the proposal will deprecate telecom=pole prior to its establishment to prevent any similar problem as well

[taylor.smock]

Four month I forgot about this ping.

I probably need to update the patch, but I'd like to know from the core devs if they want a utility_pole preset.

The two images side by side (48px). Left is attachment:pole.svg​ and right is from the mapillary_sprite_source (MIT licensed).
or

[skyper]

Comparing the power pole and utility_pole, , I think the new icon should look a little more different. How about only one (or on one side only a small) horizontal bar and/or little vertical lines on top of the horizontal bar instead of below.

[gaben]

I think it's not ready to be included in the core JOSM presets. The tagging doesn't seem established for me.

Only 17.5% of the man_made=utility_poles use utility= secondary tag, and 80% of it is utility=telecom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but also duplicates tags; power pole with lighting tagged as

• man_made=utility_pole
• utility=power;street_lighting
• highway=street_lamp
• power=pole

is same as

• highway=street_lamp
• power=pole.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to gaben:

Only 17.5% of the man_made=utility_poles use utility= secondary tag, and 80% of it is utility=telecom.

I don't know about you, but I cannot tell the difference between a pole used by a telecom and a powerpole when randomly mapping poles. Once you have connected it back to a substation/power plant, it becomes much easier to determine.

AFAIK, there are only two major uses for utility poles: power, and communication. (power, television, telecom). So, with power=pole having been widespread already, it isn't terribly surprising that most utility tags for man_made=utility_pole is telecom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but also duplicates tags; power pole with lighting tagged as

• man_made=utility_pole
• utility=power;street_lighting
• highway=street_lamp
• power=pole

is same as

• highway=street_lamp
• power=pole.

Reading the proposed spec, if the utility pole was primarily installed as a power pole,
man_made=utility_pole + utility=power and (mandatory) power=pole. I suspect power=pole is mostly mandatory for compatibility reasons though.
highway=street_lamp

With all that being said, I would much rather have people map a more generic pole when they cannot reliably determine the usage, and then allow applications like StreetComplete to fill in the missing information, instead of the mapper having to assume power=pole or communication=pole (or something else).

[taylor.smock]

Pole, missing right, left upraised

[taylor.smock]

Pole, missing right, left down

[taylor.smock]

Pole, both raised

[taylor.smock]

Pole, missing left, right upraised

[taylor.smock]

Pole, missing left, right down

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Comparing the power pole and utility_pole, , I think the new icon should look a little more different. How about only one (or on one side only a small) horizontal bar and/or little vertical lines on top of the horizontal bar instead of below.

Original power pole:

To me, the ones that are missing on side appear to be lopsided.

[gaben]

The only thing I don't like is mixed tags "for compatibility". Make it clear and suggest replacing the current ones, but it would need community approval...

One thing no one mentioned yet, how will the line between the poles tagged? Because after all, the cables determine everything in this regard.

[francois.lacombe]

Dear all,

The proposal reviewing man_made=utility_pole has been accepted.
Wikipage is now up to date
​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dutility_pole

Indeed, power=pole is still the correct tagging for power poles and we still lack a proper tag to tag telecom lines between poles.
Why can't we review later telecom=line?
​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Telecoms is also up to date

All the best

[skyper]

Two more possible icons: ,

[skyper]

pole with little upper more inside

[skyper]

pole with upper more inside

[skyper]

I would add presets links between the two pole presets, e.g. utility pole -> power pole and power pole -> utility pole

[francois.lacombe]

Hi Skyper

Regarding icons, I think that power=pole and man_made=utility_pole should have the same shape.
Background or casing colors should adapt regarding utility=* value.

• utility=power (including implied by power=pole) => yellow (existing)
• utility=telecom => green
• Unknown utility => grey (or no casing)
• utility=street_lighting => to be defined (yellow ?)

It's already successfully done for man_made=street_cabinet
Should we design one and each icon for every color or can josm automatically adapt background color?

Agree on links between power=pole and man_made=utility_pole.

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe:

Regarding icons, I think that power=pole and man_made=utility_pole should have the same shape.
Background or casing colors should adapt regarding utility=* value.

Fine, let's use casing

• utility=telecom => green

Ok

• Unknown utility => grey (or no casing)

Atm, it is white, which is invisible with white background.

• utility=street_lighting => to be defined (yellow ?)

yellow is used for power, how about a light blue or light orange?

It's already successfully done for man_made=street_cabinet
Should we design one and each icon for every color or can josm automatically adapt background color?

I am not an expert regarding icons. Think we need an icon per color and set them in mappaint. Have similar issue with dark mode (laf) and solid icons but without a solution, so far.

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to skyper:

Atm, it is white, which is invisible with white background.

I think no casing at all is better

• utility=street_lighting => to be defined (yellow ?)

yellow is used for power, how about a light blue or light orange?

Light orange, that's good

I am not an expert regarding icons. Think we need an icon per color and set them in mappaint. Have similar issue with dark mode (laf) and solid icons but without a solution, so far.

That's understandable.
I'm ok to design required casing.
Can you tell me which shape was selected among ones proposed upside please?

[skyper]

green casing

[skyper]

yellow casing

[skyper]

orange casing

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe:

Replying to skyper:

Atm, it is white, which is invisible with white background.

I think no casing at all is better

Mmh, casing works better with dark background in cases of dark imagery or non and additionally in presets with dark modes (laf).

• utility=street_lighting => to be defined (yellow ?)

yellow is used for power, how about a light blue or light orange?

Light orange, that's good

Ok. Looking at the casing color for power again, it is not completely yellow but has some red in it. Now I am puzzled what to do, see below.

I am not an expert regarding icons. Think we need an icon per color and set them in mappaint. Have similar issue with dark mode (laf) and solid icons but without a solution, so far.

That's understandable.
I'm ok to design required casing.
Can you tell me which shape was selected among ones proposed upside please?

I think, no change in shape is the solution. E.g. using the original power one.
Creating the icons should be easy but if we change colors of existing ones, all icons need to be adjusted.
Regarding casing color, I would prefer little lighter colors in general. Either the casing for power should be changed to complete yellow (for all power icons) or "light" gets the complete yellow which might be less work. In my eyes, the green in use for "telecom" is too dark, too.

My proposal:
general utility_pole (white casing) also for preset
power pole also for preset, former
light pole
telecom pole

[francois.lacombe]

That's good, thank you. I think we're almost done here.

Regarding telecom green, I'd suggest a little darker: #00b70e
Regarding power, we should keep the same yellow as existing, as it matches with many other power icons. As light pole should be distinguishable, what about #ff7d7d (medium red) for utility=street_lighting?

[skyper]

lighter yellow for street lights

[skyper]

I chose light colors for the casing on purpose, to have more contrast within the icons.
I think red is not recognizable a pole for street lights, therefor I would stick with yellow, maybe, even a little bit lighter than the one I proposed earlier like #ffff4cff

power ?	light ?	power as now	light ?
ffb233ff	ffff33ff	ffcc00ff	ffff4cff

[francois.lacombe]

I think we should be consistent with existing icons at first, the current green for telecom street cabinet looks more appropriate don't you?

Regarding power/light, the two at the right sounds good to me, difference between light orange and solid yellow is enough.

• ffcc00ff for power
• ffff4cff for light

[skyper]

Sure, always the same colors per infrastructure. I simply would change all telecom icons to a lighter green. Would have done the same if the color for power would change.

[francois.lacombe]

I find the proposed green more flashy than the current one.
May someone will have further comment about it?

Power color change isn't necessary I think.

[gaben]

Load the icons and see which is best. You can use the Styles/IconTester.

[francois.lacombe]

Thank you Gaben for this style, very useful. I've tested several combinations and this one seems to be acceptable.

[francois.lacombe]

A slight change in geometry for street_light utility poles

[francois.lacombe]

Finally I find #00a306 more appropriate for telecom pole, depending on your feeling here for pole 4739.

[Don-vip]

Not sure to understand the scope of this ticket. The patch only adds a single icon pole.svg, and there's a lot of other icons being discussed.

[skyper]

I think the patch is not read for commit, yet.
Concerning the preset:

• ref=* and operator=* should be added as optional keys (instead of removing them from power=pole).
• preset_links between the similar but different presets should be added.
• is heating as value for utility=* ok, or should it be in sync with substance=*? (#21358).

The different icons are for the mappaint style but this part is missing completely, so far.

Have we decided which icons to use?

• as general icon
• for utility=street_lighting
• for utility=power
• general icon but with green halo for utility=telecom, utility=television
• general icon but nautical water blue () halo for utility=water
• general icon but yellow halo for utility=gas
• general icon but pink halo for utility=waste

What colors for halo should be used for chemical, heating, hydrant, oil and sewerage.

• in #20530, I used pink () for substance=sewage which should probably be changed to a darker blue.
• in #20530, I used quite dark background for substance=oil () which might not work well as halo for the pole icon but I`ll try it out.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to Don-vip:

Not sure to understand the scope of this ticket. The patch only adds a single icon pole.svg, and there's a lot of other icons being discussed.

I don't either anymore...

I was kind of waiting for people to decide on the icons before updating it again. I'm kind of bad at making good-looking UI elements.

Replying to skyper:

• ref=* and operator=* should be added as optional keys (instead of removing them from power=pole).

They are still included in the pole chunk which is included in the power_pole chunk.

• preset_links between the similar but different presets should be added.

Fair.

• is heating as value for utility=* ok, or should it be in sync with substance=*? (#21358).

heating is probably ok. At least based off of ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:utility .

[skyper]

Replying to taylor.smock:

Replying to skyper:

• ref=* and operator=* should be added as optional keys (instead of removing them from power=pole).

They are still included in the pole chunk which is included in the power_pole chunk.

Sorry, I missed that line, so only preset_links should be added.

[taylor.smock]

Update to current JOSM, add preset links

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Replying to taylor.smock:

They are still included in the pole chunk which is included in the power_pole chunk.

Sorry, I missed that line, so only preset_links should be added.

No worries. Everyone misses stuff. And I just attached an updated patch with preset_links. Icons still need to be changed/updated, but I don't know if everyone is happy with the current icon list, so I'm not touching that (yet).

[gaben]

Replying to skyper:

• is heating as value for utility=* ok, or should it be in sync with substance=*? (#21358).

In this case, I think it's fine.

[taylor.smock]

Add icons for specific utilities

[skyper]

Ok, I see Taylor is working on the icons. So just a few comments:

• We only need plain svg icons, which makes the files a lot smaller plus we have difficulties with text in svgs, so all text needs to be replaced with drawing and font-*, text-* and letter-* should be removed from the files.
• I like the street_lighting icon but for the rest would use the simple pole icon with different halo. Maybe tiny for the general one and grey for mixed or unknown utility=*
• The green halo should also be used for the combinations telecom;television and television;telecom.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Ok, I see Taylor is working on the icons. So just a few comments:

I literally just took the icons that were available up above and used those.

• We only need plain svg icons, which makes the files a lot smaller plus we have difficulties with text in svgs, so all text needs to be replaced with drawing and font-*, text-* and letter-* should be removed from the files.

I'll check that -- I don't think I was deliberately using text items.

• I like the street_ligthning icon but for the rest would use the simple pole icon with different halo. Maybe tiny for the general one and grey for mixed or unknown utility=*
• The green halo should also be used for the combinations telecom;television and television;telecom.

[taylor.smock]

Remove svg icons whose only difference was halo, replace with mapcss psuedo halo

[taylor.smock]

Left to right: no utility, utility=gas, utility=water, utility=television, utility=telecom, utility=power, utility=waste, utility=telecom;waste, utility=street_lighting

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Ok, I see Taylor is working on the icons. So just a few comments:

• We only need plain svg icons, which makes the files a lot smaller plus we have difficulties with text in svgs, so all text needs to be replaced with drawing and font-*, text-* and letter-* should be removed from the files.
• I like the street_lighting icon but for the rest would use the simple pole icon with different halo. Maybe tiny for the general one and grey for mixed or unknown utility=*
• The green halo should also be used for the combinations telecom;television and television;telecom.

Left to right: no utility, utility=gas, utility=water, utility=television, utility=telecom, utility=power, utility=waste, utility=telecom;waste, utility=street_lighting

Same as above, just that no utility has a smaller halo.

Note: There is no way (as of yet) to have a halo/outline around the symbol.

[taylor.smock]

Left to right: no utility, utility=gas, utility=water, utility=television, utility=telecom, utility=power, utility=waste, utility=telecom;waste, utility=street_lighting

[skyper]

Nice, you used mapcss for the background. In this case, I would remove the background for no utility and use the small background for the mixed.
Regarding color of background, in #20530, I tried to sync the colors for substance=* and power:source=*. For identical/similar values of utility=* it might be useful to use the same colors, like yellow for gas. For telecom we already have a dark green with man_made=street_cabinet.

[taylor.smock]

Add halos for some missing utility types that also appear in substance

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Regarding color of background, in #20530, I tried to sync the colors for substance=* and power:source=*. For identical/similar values of utility=* it might be useful to use the same colors, like yellow for gas. For telecom we already have a dark green with man_made=street_cabinet.

They were synced already. Except for the telecom street_cabinet color. Something to note is that I added a transparency to the halos, so the apparent color does not match, even though the hex codes are the same.

[skyper]

I see, and think this is rather confusing as the color will not look the same if e.g. imagery has lots of different colors.

[skyper]

On little remark about the preset_link. Please add text="Similar but different tags:" as option to <preset_link /> to overwrite the default text. Thanks.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

On little remark about the preset_link. Please add text="Similar but different tags:" as option to <preset_link /> to overwrite the default text. Thanks.

I had that initially, but removed it since it didn't make much sense to me (I looked for something like text="Similar preset" -- Similar but different tags seemed like it was something for contact:email <-> email pairings, and power=pole <-> man_made=utility_pole + utility=power, but doesn't make sense for man_made=utility_pole + utility=telecom).

[skyper]

Ok, convinced. Thanks for your work.

[taylor.smock]

Drop opacity, add text= to preset_links

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Ok, convinced. Thanks for your work.

No problem -- its something Mapillary has been bugging me about for awhile (they want me to enable smart add capability for utility pole detections, which is blocked by needing a preset to show the user).

[taylor.smock]

Change preset_link text from Similar but different tags to Similar preset. (AKA: New string for translation)

[skyper]

Replying to skyper:

• in #20530, I used pink () for substance=sewage which should probably be changed to a darker blue.

See #21388.

[skyper]

Replying to skyper:

Replying to skyper:

• in #20530, I used pink () for substance=sewage which should probably be changed to a darker blue.

See #21388.

In r18240 the background color was changed to #1d5575, so we need to update sewerage.

node|z17-[man_made=utility_pole][utility=sewerage]::utility_casing {
utility_casing: #1d5575;
}

[francois.lacombe]

Hi all

Replying to skyper:

Nice, you used mapcss for the background.

That's nice indeed.
Is it possible to do the same for other icons (not urgent but just to think about for further improvements)?

I wonder if all halos can't be as small as no-utility one?
There may be numerous poles in the same place and this could clutter display too much.
No-utility could remain with white casing and no halo, how do you feel with that?

Note that, regarding utility used on poles, utility=telecom;television is not possible, wiki states it is expected with a single value.

Replying to taylor.smock:

They were synced already. Except for the telecom street_cabinet color.

We plan to replace street_cabinet=* by utility=* in a few months, will be discussed in a proposal
No need to spend so much time on street_cabinet for now.

It's impressive to have such constructive work on a pretty complex topic, that's really encouraging :)

Best regards

[skyper]

Replying to francois.lacombe:

Replying to skyper:

Nice, you used mapcss for the background.

That's nice indeed.
Is it possible to do the same for other icons (not urgent but just to think about for further improvements)?

Generally speaking, sure. Uses less icons and makes it easier to maintain, though the icons have to fit and the form of the halo is restricted. For presets this does not work, yet, and I did not test icons in panels or other dialogs.

I wonder if all halos can't be as small as no-utility one?
There may be numerous poles in the same place and this could clutter display too much.
No-utility could remain with white casing and no halo, how do you feel with that?

Do you know some area to test it?

Note that, regarding utility used on poles, utility=telecom;television is not possible, wiki states it is expected with a single value.

I do not find this written ​on the page and I wonder how you want to express that there are multiple utilities on the same pole or inside the same service building.

Replying to taylor.smock:

They were synced already. Except for the telecom street_cabinet color.

We plan to replace street_cabinet=* by utility=* in a few months, will be discussed in a proposal
No need to spend so much time on street_cabinet for now.

Nothing changed regarding street cabinets, I just wanted to make sure we use the same color.

It's impressive to have such constructive work on a pretty complex topic, that's really encouraging :)

It depends on both sides. It is much easier to create new presets from well structured wiki pages and proposals, than digging through the wiki history and taginfo to find information about the tags.

[francois.lacombe]

Replying to skyper:

Generally speaking, sure. Uses less icons and makes it easier to maintain, though the icons have to fit and the form of the halo is restricted. For presets this does not work, yet, and I did not test icons in panels or other dialogs.

Valid indeed, I'll try to remember of that.

Do you know some area to test it?

Possibly in Annecy, France
​https://gespot.fr/#15.25/45.908831/6.116115

I do not find this written ​on the page and I wonder how you want to express that there are multiple utilities on the same pole or inside the same service building.

It regards man_made=utility_pole (and power=pole implicitly) only for now
​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dutility_pole

I think this could be extended to utility=* in further proposal as street cabinets, poles, markers... often are intended for a single utility with possible side features on them.

This is how multi matching is done (or planned to)
​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dutility_pole#Logical_link_between_poles_and_supported_features

[skyper]

I see, only the primary utility for now. Think there should be an option to add the secondar utilities, too.

[skyper]

version 8: mapcss: new color for sewerage; remove duplicate gas; support only single value for telecom/television

[skyper]

I have attached version 8​:

• own color for sewerage
• remove duplicate rendering for gas
• only support single value

Did not play with the size of casing, yet.

[skyper]

@Taylor:
What do you think about the smaller radius of the halo in general as Francois suggested?

Replying to francois.lacombe:

I wonder if all halos can't be as small as no-utility one?
There may be numerous poles in the same place and this could clutter display too much.
No-utility could remain with white casing and no halo, how do you feel with that?

[taylor.smock]

I'm ok with that.

The casing size was originally due to making it transparent, and anything much smaller wasn't easy to see. It has probably changed since transparency was removed for the icon halo.

I do think 10 might be a little to small, but I'm also not mapping hundreds of these. It might be good enough. But I'd probably try 12 instead of 10.

[taylor.smock]

Same as attachment:josm_20270_8.patch​, but halos are size 12 (static)

[skyper]

Fine, think we are done and ready for commit.

[Don-vip]

Milestone renamed

[Don-vip]

In 18270/josm:

fix #20270 - Add man_made=utility_pole (patch by taylor.smock and francois.lacombe, reviewed by skyper)

[skyper]

Replying to Don-vip:

In 18270/josm:

fix #20270 - Add man_made=utility_pole (patch by taylor.smock and francois.lacombe, reviewed by skyper)

Credit belongs to Taylor. Myself, did not change anything.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to skyper:

Credit belongs to Taylor. Myself, did not change anything.

Images were from myself (attachment:pole.svg​, literally the power pole icon with a white border instead of a golden-yellow border) and francois.lacombe (attachment:pole_street_light.svg​).

I did change the preset and mapcss files, but skyper gave feedback. And removed a dupe in attachment:josm_20270_8.patch​.

Anyway, I'm perfectly OK with you (skyper) getting credit. I kind of wish that francois.lacombe got mentioned for his street light svg, but this is a longish ticket, so I can understand missing stuff like that. I probably should try (in the future) to indicate that in the attachment text, except I usually use that to indicate what changed from the last patch.

[Don-vip]

I've updated the commit message.

[taylor.smock]

Replying to Don-vip:

I've updated the commit message.

Thanks. Hopefully this doesn't break the git mirrors.