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Opened 7 weeks ago

Closed 4 weeks ago

Last modified 4 weeks ago

#17445 closed defect (fixed)

Group Key "agricultural=*" under Vehicle Type in Preset dialog

Reported by: Hb--- Owned by: team
Priority: normal Milestone: 19.03
Component: Internal preset Version:
Keywords: access restriction Cc:

Description

The OSM key agricultural=* describes access for vehicles with a low maximum speed, e.g. tractors. Currently this key is wrongly in the Vehicles per use group of the Highways/Streets/Road restrictions preset.

Users are often confused by the similar looking tag motor_vehicle=agricultural. This traffic sign combination is overwhelmingly used in Middle Europe. The "Tractor" traffic sign is not common. Because of this misunderstanding wrong tagging in OSM happens quite often.

The patch suggests

  1. A new description for the key with Slow Vehicles (Tractors)
  2. Grouping this field under Vehicles per type

Although common in most of Europe for long time, this sign Key:agricultural was introduced in Germany in 2017 only.

Attachments (1)

patch17445.diff (1.5 KB) - added by Hb--- 7 weeks ago.

Download all attachments as: .zip

Change History (13)

Changed 7 weeks ago by Hb---

Attachment: patch17445.diff added

comment:1 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Resolution: fixed
Status: newclosed

In 14876/josm:

fix #17445 - reorder acricultural=* combo in access preset and give it a better label (patch by Hb---, modified)

comment:2 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Milestone: 19.03

comment:3 Changed 5 weeks ago by Hb---

Resolution: fixed
Status: closedreopened

Please fix the label to Slow Vehicles (Tractors). The current term Agricultural Vehicles as label worsens the situation.

Suggest patch was:
<combo key="agricultural" text="Slow Vehicles (Tractors)" values="yes,official,designated,destination,permissive,private,no" match="key" />

Fix was:
<combo key="agricultural" text="Agricultural Vehicles" values="yes,official,designated,destination,permissive,private,no" match="key" />

The legal definition for the vehicles or vehicle & trailer in question is about their technical maximum speed. Regardless if these vehicles are towing hay or wagons from a circus. Even fast vehicles are affected by this rule when they tow a speed limited trailer.

The preset should make a clear difference to traffic for agricultural purposes. That tag is motor_vehicle=agricultural. Please see OSM Key:agricultural too.

Best solution is to rename the key to tractor which is out of scope for this bug.

comment:4 Changed 4 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Resolution: fixed
Status: reopenedclosed

In 14941/josm:

fix #17445 - add hint what Key:agricultural means according wiki to avoid confusion with access=agricultural

comment:5 Changed 4 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

(I reverted your change of the definition of this tag in the wiki.)

comment:6 in reply to:  5 Changed 4 weeks ago by Hb---

Resolution: fixed
Status: closedreopened

Replying to Klumbumbus:

(I reverted ... the wiki.)

Sad to say that this action deleted the reasons – why this key is not about agriculture – too.

The German traffic rule given by sign 257-58 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Zeichen_257-58_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Kraftfahrzeuge_und_Z%C3%BCge%2C_die_nicht_schneller_als_25_km-h_fahren_k%C3%B6nnen_oder_d%C3%BCrfen%2C_StVO_2017.svg/300px-Zeichen_257-58_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Kraftfahrzeuge_und_Z%C3%BCge%2C_die_nicht_schneller_als_25_km-h_fahren_k%C3%B6nnen_oder_d%C3%BCrfen%2C_StVO_2017.svg.png reads:
Verbot für Kraftfahrzeuge und Züge, die nicht schneller als 25 km-h fahren können oder dürfen.
(Forbidden for motor vehicles and vehicle-trailer combinations, which cannot or may not drive faster than 25 km/h)

The interested reader may notice that the word "Landwirtschaft" (Agriculture) is not present in this traffic law. The Polish traffic law is similar.

Please feel free to provide a tagging scheme covering this traffic rule.

Last edited 4 weeks ago by Hb--- (previous) (diff)

comment:7 Changed 4 weeks ago by mkoniecz

@Hb--

If there is need also for "slow vehicles" tag them maybe it would be better to propose a new tag name? Because in that case agricultural is incredibly misleading.

comment:8 Changed 4 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Resolution: fixed
Status: reopenedclosed

The osm key agricultural is defined in the osm wiki, not by the german or polish law.

I agree that the german law of sign 257-58 doesn't fit the current definition of agricultural (and possibly in other countries too). If this should be fixed then a tagging discussion and much likely a wiki proposal is required if definitions of existing keys are changed or new tags invented which replace the current ones.

The key agricultural is used 61000 times. You can't simply change its definition without discussion.

comment:9 in reply to:  8 ; Changed 4 weeks ago by Hb---

Now Talk:Key:agricultural gives an overview. European lawmakers created at least three different definitions of a "tractor".

Replying to mkoniecz:

If there is need also for "slow vehicles" tag them maybe it would be better to propose a new tag name? Because in that case agricultural is incredibly misleading.

If the creators of OSM would have chosen tractor= as key it would be easier now. OSM should only use one key for traffic signs with the tractor on it. The definition of the key needs to be broad enough to handle all national legislations.

Please report about the situation in Poland: What is the difference between Maszyna_samobieżna and Pojazd_wolnobieżny?

Replying to Klumbumbus:
Please give the above mentioned discussion a favor.

The key agricultural is used 61000 times.

Not all usage is correct. Alone in Germany we have over 21.000 ways with agricultural= set. I estimate that over 95% of that tags are bad. Most prominent example are the >1.800 meadows with agricultural=cutting.

comment:10 Changed 4 weeks ago by mkoniecz

Please report about the situation in Poland: What is the difference between ​Maszyna_samobieżna and ​Pojazd_wolnobieżny?

I would be happy to discuss it on tagging mailing list. Discussing new tagging schemes on bug trackers is a poor idea, I think that discussion on bug trackers should be limited to deciding how to handle existing ones. And new ones should be discussed elsewhere (note, I am not a JOSM developer, this is not opinion of bug tracker admin).

comment:11 in reply to:  9 Changed 4 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Replying to Hb---:

Now Talk:Key:agricultural gives an overview. European lawmakers created at least three different definitions of a "tractor".

Thanks for that overview. Thats a good starting point for a discussion.

comment:12 Changed 4 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

At https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65827 already started a discussion, but pretty germany specific.

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