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Opened 3 years ago

Last modified 21 months ago

#12690 reopened enhancement

add traffic_signals for pedestrians

Reported by: openstreetmap.org-user-d1g Owned by: team
Priority: normal Milestone:
Component: Internal preset Version:
Keywords: traffic signals pedestrians Cc:

Description

highway=traffic_signals - "Required. Indicates traffic signals for cars." (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals)

crossing=traffic_signals - "Required. Indicates traffic signals for pedestrians." (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals)

"crossing=traffic_signals

Position this tag where the crossing-traffic (pedestrian, bicycles) have their own traffic lights.
Mostly near highway=traffic_signals." (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing)

Attachments (0)

Change History (9)

comment:1 Changed 3 years ago by Klumbumbus

Resolution: worksforme
Status: newclosed

The preset is under Highways -> Waypoints -> Pedestrian crossing

comment:2 in reply to:  1 Changed 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g

Replying to Klumbumbus:

The preset is under Highways -> Waypoints -> Pedestrian crossing

This is another term/object.

This ticket is not about highway=crossing (which currently found in Highways -> Waypoints -> Pedestrian crossing), but about lights (both for pedestrians and cars):

"Description

Traffic signals, also known as traffic lights, traffic lamps, signal lights and stop lights are signalling devices positioned at road intersections, pedestrian crossings and other locations to control competing flows of traffic. "
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals#Description

And after you see how to tag "car lights" and "pedestrian lights" in separate sections

Last edited 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g (previous) (diff)

comment:3 Changed 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g

Main tags defined as:
"crossing=traffic_signals Required. Indicates traffic signals for pedestrians."
"highway=traffic_signals Required. Required. Indicates traffic signals for cars."

there no word about "crossings". Signals or lights will be fine, but not simply "crossing".

highway=traffic_signals (lights for cars)
crossing=traffic_signals (lights for pedestrians)

all above according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals#Tagging

Last edited 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g (previous) (diff)

comment:4 Changed 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g

Resolution: worksforme
Status: closedreopened

comment:5 Changed 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g

railway=crossing and highway=crossing were never required to use according to wiki (highway=traffic_signals / crossing=traffic_signals )

We overcomplicate tagging (by stating that highway=crossing is main tag for everything) without need for it:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Traffic_signals_alternative_mapping.png

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1972125897#map=19/50.95157/3.09928&layers=D only highway=traffic_signals
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1972125894 - only one lights here (but this node has wrong tag ATM: highway=traffic_signals, when it should be pedestrian lights: crossing=traffic_signals)

Usage of crossing=traffic_signals on nodes was added only recently (~1 year) by user escada:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3360855880
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3360855879

IMO crossing=traffic_signals should be part of the footway graph, so this node
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1972125898
tagged with crossing=traffic_signals will be good for pedestrian/cycle routers

we probably don't need crossing=traffic_signals information in a motorcar/highway graph, since crossings (a OSM-ways) themself should be tagged with footway=crossing:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/166817915
"Always consider other means of transport that may use a crossing too. " - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:footway%3Dcrossing

If way/166817915 was a pedestrian+cycle crossing, then it should be tagged:
footway=crossing + cycleway=crossing (according to Tag:footway%3Dcrossing wiki)

Last edited 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g (previous) (diff)

comment:6 Changed 3 years ago by Klumbumbus

crossing=traffic_signals is a refinement of highway=crossing (or, if the whole junction is mapped as a single node it can be an refinement of highway=traffic_signals)
We do not remove the main tag if a subtag is present (e.g. we keep highway=track even when tracktype=grade3 is mapped). So we tag highway=crossing even when crossing=traffic_signals is present. Every pedestrian crossing with traffic signals is still a crossing => highway=crossing.
See taginfo: 72,6% of crossing=traffic_signals have highway=crossing and 22,6% highway=traffic_signals, in total 95,2%.

Wiki quotes:

Key:crossing: "This tag is used for more accurately describing specific types of pedestrian crossings across roads, and other types of crossing over road or rail. Crossing infrastructure for the convenience of pedestrians, cyclists etc. should first be tagged with highway=crossing or railway=crossing as appropriate. The specific type of crossing may be further specified with the crossing=* tag and other properties described below."

Tag:highway=traffic_signals#Traffic_signals_for_pedestrians: "Add the following tags in addition to highway=traffic_signals for pedestrian crossings if the entire crossing is represented by a single node, or to separate highway=crossing nodes if the pedestrian crossings are tagged on their own (strongly recommended)."

And so is the JOSM preset. The preset is for crossings and there you can choose the detailed croosing type (e.g. traffic signals)

comment:7 in reply to:  6 ; Changed 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g

Replying to Klumbumbus:

crossing=traffic_signals is a refinement of highway=crossing

Was it ever agreed with voting or wide discussion? I cannot trace main discussion of highway=crossing at wiki or in any other OSM channels.

Yes, I inspected not only latest text, but also their edit history; and their taginfo stats (trivial note: I was using these tags since day one in OSM too)

In version 6 May 2008‎ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:crossing&diff=prev&oldid=98274 by Gravitystorm described crossing=* without highway=* or/and railway=
In version 7 July 2008 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:crossing&direction=next&oldid=125755 by Nickvet419 first suggestion to use "To be used with * highway=crossing and railway=crossing to supply a type for the crossing." Note that it is not required. Note that it is only refinement of crossing=*. Note that crossing=zebra or crossing=pelican were suggested at this page.
In version 11 August 2008 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:crossing&diff=next&oldid=139278 by Achadwick he added "Further refinement for nodes already tagged with highway=crossing or railway=crossing" for the first time. Note: he removed simple recommendation from the body of the page, now it is "required" to use.

BUT

In 28 July 2008, a crossing=* key was approved with 3 main classes: traffic_signals, no or uncontrolled (default)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Approved_features/Road_crossings&oldid=132309

For pegasus, zebras and company was suggested a separate key: crossing_ref=*

In this approved proposal, there no requirement to use highway=crossing. There no recommendation to use highway=crossing.

At the same time, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dcrossing&oldid=194706 highway=crossing was undocumented and undefined.

So why do we have to use highway=crossing if it was never required before 11 August 2008 edits? If there better discussions that what was left at wiki? IMO we had error in documentation at one of most popular tags for 8 years now: highway=crossing or railway=crossing are recommended subtags, not required tags.

To avoid confusion, we can use crossing=* and (2-4 new subtags):
crossing:railway=yes/no
crossing:highway=yes/no
crossing:footway=yes/no
crossing:cycleway=yes/no

To describe all combinations what kind of crossing= it is. If a cycleway crosses railroad: corssing=uncontrolled|uncontrolled|no|unmarked + (optional subtags crossing:cycleway=yes+crossing:railway=yes)

Is there something wrong above, any better ideas?

Last edited 3 years ago by openstreetmap.org-user-d1g (previous) (diff)

comment:8 in reply to:  7 Changed 3 years ago by Klumbumbus

Replying to openstreetmap.org-user-d1g:

So why do we have to use highway=crossing if it was never required before 11 August 2008 edits? If there better discussions that what was left at wiki? IMO we had error in documentation at one of most popular tags for 8 years now: highway=crossing or railway=crossing are recommended subtags, not required tags.

In 2008 the osm data density was verly low compared to now. (look at https://mvexel.github.io/thenandnow/#5/49.110/10.371) single mapped crossings were very rare. The tagging schema needed some time to evolve and is now at the point that pedestrian crossings are tagged with highway=crossing (see my already posted taginfo statistic).

To avoid confusion, we can use crossing=* and (2-4 new subtags):
crossing:railway=yes/no
crossing:highway=yes/no
crossing:footway=yes/no
crossing:cycleway=yes/no

To describe all combinations what kind of crossing= it is. If a cycleway crosses railroad: corssing=uncontrolled|uncontrolled|no|unmarked + (optional subtags crossing:cycleway=yes+crossing:railway=yes)

Is there something wrong above, any better ideas?

This is not the place to discuss new tagging schemas.

comment:9 Changed 21 months ago by Don-vip

Keywords: traffic signals pedestrians added
Summary: traffic_signals for pedastrians are missingadd traffic_signals for pedestrians

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