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Opened 7 years ago

Closed 7 years ago

Last modified 7 years ago

#10568 closed enhancement (wontfix)

[PATCH] Remove from default presets, amenities that objectify (mostly) women

Reported by: osm@… Owned by: team
Priority: normal Milestone:
Component: Internal preset Version: tested
Keywords: amenity brothel nightclub stripclub Cc:

Description


Attachments (1)

presets-no-more-brothel.diff (2.9 KB) - added by osm@… 7 years ago.

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Change History (13)

Changed 7 years ago by osm@…

comment:1 Changed 7 years ago by stoecker

Resolution: wontfix
Status: newclosed

This is no political correctness club.

comment:2 Changed 7 years ago by Don-vip

Keywords: amenity brothel nightclub stripclub added

What you can do instead is providing better icons, see #6175.

comment:3 Changed 7 years ago by bastiK

We can remove the preset when there are practically no more brothels on earth. My guess is that this won't be any time soon.

comment:4 Changed 7 years ago by osm@…

"This is no political correctness club."

I was afraid that this was going to be the reply. Typical barrier-throwing sexist behaviour. It has nothing to do with being politically correct, but everything about promoting OSM as an inclusive project.

What sort of signal do you think it gives of to new (non white male) people wanting to map with JOSM. I have been doing a few events with HOT, where there is often a much more diverse (sadly, only in the male/female way, not like properly diverse) group of people and then they suddenly see "Brothel" showing up in between "Horse riding" and "Playground"? And don't think people don't notice this, as I personally had a lady ask me why it was there in the first place.

"We can remove the preset when there are practically no more brothels on earth. My guess is that this won't be any time soon."

Is a bullshit comment, as there are no presets for everything. In no way does not having a preset prevents people from mapping brothels.

Instead of being hostile to a genuine suggesting to not promote sexism through presets, perhaps you could engage in better ways to solve this real issue? I am certainly willing to talk.

comment:5 Changed 7 years ago by stoecker

Feel free to discuss this in the appropriate places. Not in the JOSM bug tracker.

comment:6 Changed 7 years ago by concerned

And where do you believe is the appropriate place?

A change like this seems like a no-brainer to me, in the exact same way as Google doesn't give you porn unless you specifically ask for it, anything with a target audience no more specific than "the general public" should not present the user with options that do not have universal appeal.

Setting aside the fact that this is patently obviously offensive to some potential users, this is simply a matter of common sense and good taste.

comment:7 Changed 7 years ago by Derick Rethans <osm@…>

This issue is about an offensive preset in JOSM. Most certainly that belongs in this issue tracker?

Perhaps these two presets (stripclub and brothel) should go into a separate preset?
Perhaps presets should be reorganised?
Perhaps you have a good idea to make this better?

All I really want is this not showing up in between family friendly activities, as to not antagonize potential mappers. I was hoping you could help out here.

comment:8 Changed 7 years ago by bastiK

In OSM we simply map facts without judging them. It is certainly interesting to know the locations of brothels and similar establishments. For example for families, to know what areas to avoid when visiting a foreign city.

If we have a preset of something, it is ridiculous to assume that we endorse or promote this feature.

I would agree, that the map icon is unnecessarily graphic, so you are encouraged to suggest something more symbolic.

comment:9 Changed 7 years ago by framm

For context, this discussion arose from a thread on the osmf-talk list where someone complained that in JOSM you had a nice preset for strip clubs and brothels and nothing for a kindergarten (except the bare main tag). On the list, I suggested to simply add a better kindergarten preset instead of complaining. I could have known that it would be difficult to elicit a reaction that would not be combative.

+1 for mapping brothels and strip clubs, but we should draw the line at advertising (as we always should). It is important to know where they are even if you view them with disdain, if only to tell your kid to take another route to school.

I'd still like to see some movement on #10569, the second ticket that originated from the discussion.

comment:10 in reply to:  9 Changed 7 years ago by stoecker

Replying to framm:

For context, this discussion arose from a thread on the osmf-talk list where someone complained that in JOSM you had a nice preset for strip clubs and brothels and nothing for a kindergarten (except the bare main tag).

For reference: discussion

On the list, I suggested to simply add a better kindergarten preset instead of complaining. I could have known that it would be difficult to elicit a reaction that would not be combative.

So original poster did opposite of advised. Who could expect that?

I'd still like to see some movement on #10569, the second ticket that originated from the discussion.

With a fixed patch improved kindergarten preset is no issue. Only the movement to an unused tagging scheme is blocking.

And now please end this discussion. It will have no results and as long as I'm maintainer I will oppose any type of censorship (based on whatever reasons).

comment:11 Changed 7 years ago by anonymous

This has personal security issues.

With brothels being illegal in many countries, marking something as 'brothel' marks the residents as behaving illegally, and makes them a target for law enforcement or vigilante justice.

It could be used to maliciously and falsely mark people with this taboo.

On the other hand, I don't see any benefit from having this appear on a map, apart from the facetious one made up-thread, which serves to illustrate the taboo.

comment:12 Changed 7 years ago by pieren

If it is illegal, then change the tag to 'illegal_brothel' to hide them on the map ;-)

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