JOSM preset for roundabout

[pieren]

JOSM presets is adding a oneway=yes tag for roundabouts. Could you remove this, please ?
This is in contradiction with the wiki (linked in the dialog itself) which says clearly that oneway is implied:

​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout

and something about common sens since it is said since years in OSM that the direction of the way gives the oneway direction in roundabouts. And if it is not oneway, it is simply not a roundabout (excepted for the 3 or 4 magic roundabouts in the world). Otherwise we start to see complains about roundabouts tagged with oneway=-1

​http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/newbies/2009-July/003279.html
​http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2009-March/002731.html

We also see some validation tools that report this as an error (osmose)

[anonymous]

I would like to change the wiki to optional use of oneway=yes and leave the preset as it is. Btw it is not forbidden by the wiki to use it. To prohibit the wrong use of roundabout and oneway=-1, the reverse dircetion-function should only give a hint and not changing the oneway-value.

[pieren]

Well, not all editors supply a nice prompt dialog when reversing a way ;-) It is not forbiden to use it but someone should provide an example with a roundabout with oneway=no (excepted again maybe - even not sure - the five magic roundabouts existing for the whole world).

[EtienneChove]

Of course it's not prohibited... but why do you want to add tags wich are implied by junction=roundabout ?
In this case, you shoul add "access=no,motorcar=yes,hgv=yes,oneway=yes,surface=paved" for "highway=motorway" and others unsusefull tags.
In the fee cases of magic roundabouts, users may add oneway=0.
You may change the wiki only if many people agree with you, not to adapt it to josm developpers' feeling.

[stoecker]

The question is if stating implicit stuff explicit is bad or not? With the current OSM, where the implications change over time it is not such a bad idea.

Etienne: Regarding your examples. None of these are implicit, you are mising up different topics.

BTW: Regarding magic roundabouts: They are still oneways, so why should there be an exception for them?

[pieren]

It is even not a question of implicite or explicite, but a question about definition of a roundabout itself: if it is not oneway, it is not a roundabout.

Or I could express differently:

combining oneway=no and junction=roundabout is a mistake.

As you noticed yourself, even magic rounndabouts are oneway.

[Murphy]

I agree to remove oneway preset for roundabout
since it's a default value (as definition of a itself).
It's like "car=no", "hgv=no" or ""motorboat=no" on footways.

stoecker: you should look at the motorway wiki page (right side) before arguing:
​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway

[stoecker]

Murphy:
Exactly that was what I was talking about. The implicit assumption of OSM tags change too fast, have problems with downwards compatibility and not always make sense:

• The highway=motorcar implicit assumptions forbid motorcycles on motorways which is nonsense
• It also forbids all not-yet known vehicle types which may come in future
• Who says that all motorways must be paved?
• Who says that all motorways allow hgvs?

There is too much nonsense there and the Wiki is driven by too many fanatics to be reliable. JOSM always ignored Wiki standards which have not been useful and there is no need to change that. JOSM is a powerful factor to decide how data really looks like (contrary to the Wiki which says how it SHOULD look like).

So the main issue is still if oneway=yes useful for roundabouts:

Pro:

• The explicit oneway spec will ensure that oneways are oneways. Programs without explicit rules will work reliable.
• It does no harm
• Is it really sure roundabouts are oneway allover the world? Are there for sure no countries which have different rules?

Contra:

• A bit wasted space in a database which has so many useless stuff, that it does not count.

Regarding presets the final word will have Christoph, but till now I heard nothing really convincing.

[anonymous]

If each mapping softwares decide differently how a roundabout (or other thing) should be tagged we are going to have big problems. Users discovering OSM read the wiki, learning how to tag. It's not an easy process. But when users discover that their different tools tag differently the same thing it's too bad.

If you are not agree with the wiki, change the wiki, not the tool. If you have not good enough argument to change the wiki don't use your master on josm to force others to do like you want.

OSM is a collaborative effort. The OSM wiki is the result of collaborative discussions all around the world. It's the answer and the guide for all of us. Please respect that.

[stoecker]

If each mapping softwares decide differently how [...] should be tagged we are going to have big problems.

Actually this is reality. That's why josm always is on the side "better safe than sorry", whereas you request otherwise.

Users discovering OSM read the wiki, learning how to tag.

I doubt that. TagWatch and experience show us, that the influence of actual tagging in the area of beginners and of editor presets is much higher than the Wiki.

If you are not agree with the wiki, change the wiki, not the tool.

I tried sometimes and gave up. I rather do tools and let the politics do others.

The OSM wiki is the result of collaborative discussions all around the world

No, it is not. There are too many difference between reality and Wiki to say it is a consensus. That may be true for some of the major elements, but already for details it is untrue.

It's the answer and the guide for all of us.

This is highly questionable.

Please respect that.

No. I and also most of the other josm developers only accept reasonable things. Usually we don't accept authorithies only because someone says it is the authority.

Don't try to convince me with saying "it is written, so it must be". Either you have a good reason or you have not. The question is why is changing it better than leaving it as it is. Nothing else counts.

[pieren]

Dirk, I agree partially with you about the defaults for motorway.

But I would like to come back to the aim of this ticket. I'm myself using very seldom the presets if I have to add one tag or two and I don't use the roundabout preset.

Excepted the fact that roundabouts are probably the single case where we are 100% sure that oneway is implicite, the problem is that we find now roundabouts tagged with oneway=-1 which means that forcing people to add tags transparently and without explanations is not always a good method.

Perhaps an improvement would be to ask people to check if the direction of the way corresponds to the driving way each time or the first time the preset for roundabouts is used.

[anonymous]

stoecker:

# The highway=motorcar implicit assumptions forbid motorcycles on motorways which is nonsense
(I think you wanted to say "motorcar=yes")
# It also forbids all not-yet known vehicle types which may come in future
False!
Don't invent rules: if you want to forbid a vehicle, you must declare it "motorcycle=no", or follow implicit assumptions.

"There is too much nonsense there and the Wiki is driven by too many fanatics to be reliable. JOSM always ignored Wiki standards which have not been useful and there is no need to change that. JOSM is a powerful factor to decide how data really looks like (contrary to the Wiki which says how it SHOULD look like)."
Just read previous anonymous post.
The wiki is the result of OSM collaborative effort.
JOSM has nothing to win playing god with the rules. It's just a tool.

A Pro/con list only made with your personal opinion has no sense.

• The explicit oneway spec will ensure that oneways are oneways.

The only definition of roundabout has no need of this supplement tag, it ensures oneway itself.

• It does no harm

lol? Not a rational argument, in contradiction with your only con.

• Is it really sure roundabouts are oneway allover the world? Are there for sure no countries which have different rules?

If 99% of the roundabouts have no oneway, do you prefer to:

• tag 99% of them with oneway=yes and tag 1% with oneway=no ?
• tag only 1% with oneway=no and follow a common rule that specifies a default oneway=yes ?

• A bit wasted space in a database which has so many useless stuff, that it does not count.

You just confess that it is a useless stuff.

I think you don't understand the implicit assumptions in OpenStreetMap.
Do you put "foot=yes" or "motorcar=no" on a footway?
It's a nonsense to add every tag on every node/way!
This is why OSM created so many tags (and put implicit assumptions): to avoid copying the same values on same entities.
Or start tagging 99.99% of the highways with maxheight=no (does it harm?).

[ce]

As Dirk said, implied tags change from time to time. I rather read "implies" as "if no tag is present, assume that...". Adding a oneway tag to roundabouts IMO is a good thing, especially when it comes to national differences like right- and left-hand traffic.

If that helped, I could imagine to turn the checkbox into a combo box which defaults to be empty (no tagging) and lets the user decide whether to set it or leave it alone.

[Murphy]

A default no-tagging value would be great for my part.

[pieren]

It's better than nothing but you just postpone the debate. Someone will come soon or later and ask why it is there or why it is not sticked by default.

I can hear the arguments about the wiki changing too fast or changed by some fanatics but saying that josm developers will impose the tagging schema for the best of osm is not really in the spirit of the project.

Anyway, thanks for the change and congratulation for the great work done in josm by the team.

[ce]

check changed to be off per default. HTH.

[ce]

BTW: After over three years I know OSM I think I have learned the following:

• The wiki represents the opinion of a wee small part of the project members only
• MapFeatures sucks, as only an absolute minority votes for features, regardless that thousands of mappers are mapping in another way
• Tools like tagwatch etc. provide a better mirror about the state of tagging than any wiki
• Try to avoid doing politics via the JOSM presets...
• ...where avoidable :)

I hope my change provides a compromise acceptable for all parties. Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.

[pieren]

• The wiki represents the opinion of a wee small part of the project members only

the wiki is not perfect, the mailing list is not perfect. It is our responsibility to participate in the documentation of the project, not only on the geobase.

• MapFeatures sucks, as only an absolute minority votes for features, regardless that thousands of mappers are mapping in another way

mapfeatures is not so bad. I know it is easy to blame but it is a powerfull guideline for newcomers.

• Tools like tagwatch etc. provide a better mirror about the state of tagging than any wiki

tagwatch also reflects the presets, so it is not only individual decisions...

• Try to avoid doing politics via the JOSM presets...

creating presets IS politics, you must admit this.

I could also add :

• what about presets when they are different between editors ? with potlatch or the coming online editor from cloudemade ? are we going to see preset wars ? I hope that we will continue to have discussions based on real arguments.

[stoecker]

Pieren:

JOSM still is THE preset based editor. The others have only rudimentary support. We tried several times to reach a common handling, but failed always by missing support of the others, so essentially JOSM presets are on their own (with one exception, a mobile editor). Last time we tried to reach a common base with merkaartor I implemented lots of requested news in the format and the merkaartor developers did nothing and are still stuck with their unchanging prototypes of a different presets format. I do not like this, but it does not mean we should stop to use the influence we have. JOSM is no closed project, so everybody can come and suggest improvements and when useful reach changes.

I doubt MapFeatures are really used by Newcomers. I myself never used it really intensively when I was new and later I found it to erroneous to be a good guide and I talked to many others who also did not use it. Merely they do it the same way as others did around them in the databse - I think this is the driving factor.

anonymous:
This is the problem of MapFeatures - It is made by people like you which don't understand implications even when pointed with their nose to it. "access=no" means no access for all except for the specially given other tags. First that means that programs must support these other tags (which have been invented later and continue to be invented) and second this means others will be overlooked (like motorcycle). As all your other texts show that you do not even try to understand another persons opinion continuing discussion is a bit useless.

If the change of Christoph is good or not I do not know, but he is still the master of presets (except if he gets totally mad :-)

[anonymous]

You wrote "highway=motorcar", I don't know this tag so I assumed you wrote "motorcar=yes" so there's nothing about access here, we misunderstood.

"As all your other texts show that you do not even try to understand another persons opinion continuing discussion is a bit useless."

That's funny coming from you, especially when you don't care about reading my post or in general about the community:

"I tried sometimes and gave up. I rather do tools and let the politics do others."
Just read my post and argue nicely but stops claiming others are single-minded.

[Murphy]

@stoecker
Just to be clear, do you find all implicit assumptions in OSM useless?
If so, how do you manage to put all these tags?
"Or start tagging 99.99% of the highways with maxheight=no (does it harm?)" is a bit funny but becames true...

[logictheo]

Humble note: Make your/(my) own presets and publish them where others publish them[0]. I'm currently making presets for tagging doctors in Greece.

[0] = They publish them here: ​http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets