Please don't use AI images in JOSM

[thibaultmol]

I just noticed a picture of a mouse holding a sign saying 'help josm'.
The image is clearly AI and just feels.... weird...

It doesn't belong in something like JOSM in my personal opinion.
I use AI myself for various things, but art is one of those things that I don't like AI use of.

[stoecker]

P.S. Why is this image 'clearly AI' generated? How can you separate this image from one drawn by a human?

[anonymous]

P.S. Why is this image 'clearly AI' generated? How can you separate this image from one drawn by a human?

#24067

[stoecker]

No answer is also an answer.

[thibaultmol]

@stoecker I had one hour to respond to your comment? passive aggressive much?

I am not the only one seeing that it's AI, many people on Mastodon have already immediately realized it.
We don't need to justify ourselves to you.

If you can provide me with a timelapse of this being drawn, please do. But you won't. Cause you can't. Because it's AI. The artstyle of the image is also very common with AI images. If you claim to be such an expert on ai images, you should know that.

Also, seeing some of your other comments about this being the future of art and enabling not artists to do art.... are all shit takes. Art is made by artists not by 'prompt engineers'. You are spitting in the face of every real artist

[stoecker]

Replying to thibaultmol:

had one hour to respond to your comment?

That referenced the no answer of anonymous above.

Art is made by artists not by 'prompt engineers'. You are spitting in the face of every real artist

Maps made by amateurs and auto-generated by algorithms are spitting in the face of my profession. I'm studied "Dipl.-Ing. für Geodäsie", i.e. Master of Geodesy. I learned how to do proper maps. It's an art. What justification do you have?

[thibaultmol]

....what
Didn't you just prove my point?

In the same way that you'd spit at AI generated maps. We spit at AI generated images. It's not that hard to understand I think?

[richlv]

Ohh, let's take a breath and a small pause :)
No point arguing between ourselves, we have enough... less benevolent parties around.

I guess the question on "why" was a rhetorical one, as a defensive action. We could talk about uncanny-valley-like effects, but there's probably no need to pretend.

Regarding the "AI" generated images, it might be a value question. People who contribute to OSM seem to have values that... don't quite match the values behind the current generative LLM trends.
OSM seems to be more of a value project than a technical project. Perhaps we can - in an extremely respectful way - try to understand why either side has the opinion they have?

[thibaultmol]

There's a reason I made it a separate thread, as to not clog the main thread about the translation efforts. But this issue being marked as nofix closed within an hour.... not exactly comforting for a discussion. Marking it as nofix after 0 discussion basically says "no, we don't care"

[stoecker]

Replying to richlv:

I guess the question on "why" was a rhetorical one

That should be obvious when such a statement comes from me, who works for OSM for nearly 2 decades.

[thibaultmol]

Sorry, how should that be obvious? Are you assuming everyone knows you? I didn't know of you until you closed my issue.

I've used JOSM but that doesn't mean I know who you are; let alone knowing how you communicate with people. None of that is obvious

[impiaaa]

Thank you for creating this ticket. As I said in the other thread, forcing AI-generated imagery upon JOSM users is insulting to users and contributors. It also violates the licenses of the many pieces of art that went into producing the imagery, and that is something OSM contributors care a lot about.

[anonymous]

My god so much talk for so little actions: admit the mistake, use GIMP, case closed.

That's was a bad decision and bad handling.

[vazhnov]

Guys, please stop using "generative neural networks" pictures for my loved JOSM. Every time I start JOSM, and I see this, I want to stop contributing.

[vazhnov]

I think a link to the thread ​https://en.osm.town/@erin/113958462421547433 should stay documented in this ticket.

[BalooUriza]

I agree, this is unacceptable behavior. There's plenty of furry artists that could have been hired or commissioned whose work was pirated to create the training data used to create the images. It's in poor form to steal from artists like that, and given we don't like it when people pirate our map, it's pretty hypocritical to do it to artists.

[ceiriosm]

I want to say that translation itself is an industry at threat from AI. Seeing these images be used and defended despite the criticism makes me not want to spend my time volunteering translations when, and I don't want to tempt fate here, this unfortunately feels to me like the beginning of a slippery slope where AI translations could be used for JOSM. I don't want to invest hours of my time when whatever I have done could be overridden by AI slop at any time.

Stoecker (link):

Well, it's as easy as it is: Without AI such a type of advertising would simply be impossible. Such a minor image would cost several 100€ per image. There isn't even the slightest chance that would work. BTW this also the reason why you are sure this is AI generated stuff, because I couldn't have afforded artists to do the same for me. Otherwise the images are in the same league as I could commission somewhere.

This is exactly the threat. Companies are cheaping out and using AI (and already using machine translations for at least a decade now) to cut corners, resulting in poor quality, no QA, and translators losing customers. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[anonymous]

Wow it's still there.

Hear me well: SHAME ON YOU. This middle finger to OSM community should be returned to you. I am extremely disappointed by the devs behaviour and now cease to improve or recommend JOSM until public apologies.

Ciao!

[LeSharko]

Hey um... since you went to the effort to ask AI to generate all these images, then why not ask it to translate JOSM instead of wasting hours of each contributor's life with clunky translation software? (Launchpad)

These are my two cents.

[anonymous]

Personally the AI issue bothers me way less than the furry beefcakes, and it's insane I even have to type this out when talking about mapping software.

How can you possibly feel like fetish behavior like this is acceptable here? (And I say this as a FurAffinity user. You're making us look bad.)

[anonymous]

I'm also a furry, and while I don't find the images including the latest one of two shirtless mice to be 'fetish'.

This image def doesn't belong as the start screen for a mapping application.

Imagine showing JOSM to someone from a city municipality "ignore the shirtless mice on the start screen"....

This whole thing is dumb and should stop. It keeps getting worse and more unprofessional with every image created

[thibaultmol]

Forgot to sign in, (that last anonymous post was me)

[richlv]

Hey all, please do remember civility.
This was not a malicious thing, it had good intents. Moreover, we have enough bad actors outside OSM, no need for infighting.

There's no reason we cannot politely talk about this, and - hopefully - together end up advertising JOSM localisation way more, and in a more positive way, than ever before.

[anonymous]

Replying to stoecker:

P.S. Why is this image 'clearly AI' generated? How can you separate this image from one drawn by a human?

It's very obvious you used a generic online AI art generator based on one of the earliest (free) models. If you have to ask why this image is clearly AI, you should not be in charge of any form of marketing or communication. The style of your images and the way text is written is typical of the (earlier) genAI model output that floods the internet. This type of image is more likely to turn away any potential contributors: artists do not support anyone using genAI, people are worn out by the flood of AI garbage that pollutes the internet, and imagine seeing this type of content in an office setting if you happen to be using JOSM at work.

Even this thread already highlights the issue: refusal to commission an artist who, besides the artwork itself, could have advised you that using nude buff mice is not a sound marketing strategy for a mapping software. I recently installed JOSM as a new user but will not be using this going forward.

[spughetti]

I can't go to the office and have 2 shirtless mice pop up on my screen, this is definitely not appropriate and has to stop. The "Show splash screen at startup" option doesn't disable the MOTD either.

[clay_c]

I use JOSM at work sometimes. I no longer feel comfortable recommending JOSM to coworkers and clients because of the suggestive AI-generated art.

@stoecker has not acknowledged the impact of this problem, or that it is even a problem to begin with. So even if the images were to be removed immediately, I have no way of knowing whether the JOSM devs might do something similarly unprofessional in the future.

I'm beginning to transition our internal documentation at work from JOSM to iD. Shame it doesn't have all the features we need, but at least the maintainers are responsive and professional.

[LeSharko]

Replying to clay_c:

I use JOSM at work sometimes. I no longer feel comfortable recommending JOSM to coworkers and clients because of the suggestive AI-generated art.

@stoecker has not acknowledged the impact of this problem, or that it is even a problem to begin with. So even if the images were to be removed immediately, I have no way of knowing whether the JOSM devs might do something similarly unprofessional in the future.

I'm beginning to transition our internal documentation at work from JOSM to iD. Shame it doesn't have all the features we need, but at least the maintainers are responsive and professional.

And they don't shove unwanted AI ""art"" down people's eyeballs.

[Vpicavet]

Environmental impact of AI ( more specifically LLMs ), and its clear bad impact on opensource software ( see issues overfilled with garbage ) should be two reasons to stay out of LLMs where they do not show a crucial improvement in all aspects ( economical, quality, social, environmental…).

[thibaultmol]

See discussion happening on the OSM community forums as well btw: ​https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/ai-ferrets-take-over-josm/125426/6

And i'll just copy my latest reply from there to here as well:

While stoecker hasn’t replied to this thread (and so has given no apology either), the image has changed to a non-animal one, so it’s fair to assume he has read this thread.

Atleast it’s now safe for work again, but who knows if it’ll stay that way.

In either case: it’s still using AI images to ask for HUMAN translators. Which is still a joke of an idea.
Until they stop using AI, I don’t think anyone should bother translating for JOSM. Because clearly they don’t care for human labor.

Again @stoecker we’re not asking you to commission a 200$ art piece… we’re asking you to post a genuine image. Doesn’t matter the quality.
If anything, a shitty drawing in paint would be better because it would be genuine.

This is a :poop: thing I made on a paint app on my phone. But atleast it feels genuine. You’re free to use it, public domain.

[thibaultmol]

Also (technically besides the point of this specific ticket), but multiple people (who wanted to translate) have pointed out a massive problem that's preventing a lot of contributions and so far I have seen so response from you (stoecker) on this point so far: the translation platform you use is outdated and not user friendly. Switching to something modern like Weblate is an actual way to increase contributions.

[anonymous]

Please remove the obvious AI-generated images from the start-up screen. One had a literal typo in an image asking for translations. And anthropomorphized buff shirtless animals in a mapping software? You cannot make this up. Mildly put, this is extremely unprofessional. I can understand someone new to AI and not familiar with art making a mistake once and then removing it after being educated. But it has been weeks, so this is now a deliberate choice to insult the users. How can something like this pass code/UX review? You are asking for my volunteer time and in response throwing this generated AI junk at me? I know that I've personally lost any interest in ever translating or reporting bugs if the above response is any indication of developer attitude towards its core users.

[anonymous]

For anyone who missed it, this is stoecker's response to this issue:

​https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/ai-ferrets-take-over-josm/125426/67

[stoecker]

Closed as duplicate of #24067.