Add access=unknown to presets

[mkoniecz]

What steps will reproduce the problem?

1. Map parking from aerial images of unknown access status
2. Start adding access=unknown

What is the expected result?

unknown is autocompleted

What happens instead?

It is not

Please provide any additional information below. Attach a screenshot if possible.

Triggered by ​https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/196

access=unknown is useful to denote that access is unknown for features where users/mappers/editors assume some access state if tags is missing and mapper is unable to check accessibility but is able to map the feature

Data consumers typically assume that amenity=parking without access tags is public, and when mapping from aerial imagery some parking will be likely (but not certainly) access restricted, in such cases tagging them unknown would be a good idea.

Note: I am main author of ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dunknown - please do not treat it as significant indicator of independent opinion (but it works as a weak one as noone wanted to edit it significantly so far)

This would partially revert https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/11070

Relative:URL: ^/trunk
Repository:UUID: 0c6e7542-c601-0410-84e7-c038aed88b3b
Last:Changed Date: 2021-12-21 15:17:17 +0100 (Tue, 21 Dec 2021)
Revision:18351
Build-Date:2021-12-22 02:31:06
URL:https://josm.openstreetmap.de/svn/trunk

Identification: JOSM/1.5 (18351 en) Linux Ubuntu 20.04.3 LTS
Memory Usage: 569 MB / 3974 MB (176 MB allocated, but free)
Java version: 11.0.13+8-Ubuntu-0ubuntu1.20.04, Ubuntu, OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM
Look and Feel: javax.swing.plaf.metal.MetalLookAndFeel
Screen: :0.0 1920×1200 (scaling 1.00×1.00) :0.1 1920×1200 (scaling 1.00×1.00)
Maximum Screen Size: 1920×1200
Best cursor sizes: 16×16→16×16, 32×32→32×32
Environment variable LANG: en_US.UTF-8
System property file.encoding: UTF-8
System property sun.jnu.encoding: UTF-8
Locale info: en_US
Numbers with default locale: 1234567890 -> 1234567890
Desktop environment: LXQt
Java package: openjdk-11-jre:amd64-11.0.13+8-0ubuntu1~20.04
Java ATK Wrapper package: libatk-wrapper-java:all-0.37.1-1
libcommons-logging-java: libcommons-logging-java:all-1.2-2
fonts-noto: fonts-noto:-
Dataset consistency test: No problems found

Plugins:
+ buildings_tools (35823)
+ measurement (35640)
+ reverter (35869)
+ todo (30306)

Validator rules:
+ https://josm.openstreetmap.de/josmfile?page=Rules/OSMLint&zip=1
+ ${HOME}/Documents/install_moje/OSM software/manual editing and discussions/josm/resources/data/validator/deprecated.mapcss

Last errors/warnings:
- 00014.495 W: Failed to add ${HOME}/Documents/install_moje/OSM software/manual editing and discussions/josm/resources/data/validator/deprecated.mapcss to tag checker
- 00014.496 W: java.nio.file.NoSuchFileException: ${HOME}/Documents/install_moje/OSM software/manual editing and discussions/josm/resources/data/validator/deprecated.mapcss

[skyper]

I tend to only add approved or much used values for access=*. Since several years the numbers seem to stale or even drop with only small rises of the more precise access tags like foot=unknown. There exists wiki/Presets/MtbSingletrack which offers the value. As it is only six month old, I doubt that it had much influence, so far.
Is this the try to get rid of all the access=yes? I usually use FIXME=* and add OSM Notes.

Do you have links to discussions about unknown as value of access tags? I like to discuss this first on a wider audience and would prefer a proposal to vote on.

[mkoniecz]

Is this the try to get rid of all the access=yes?

Rather opposite, attempt to have explicit access tagging on amenity=parking with access=unknown used until proper survey.

Do you have links to discussions about unknown as value of access tags? I like to discuss this first on a wider audience and would prefer a proposal to vote on.

I can post on a tagging mailing list but for proposals I would not even put it on my TODO list - I have already ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Designing_policy_for_handling_files_without_clear_license ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/deprecate_class:bicycle_tag_family ​https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/healthcare%3Dsample_collection#Features.2FPages_affected that I would finish before starting the next one.

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to mkoniecz:

Data consumers typically assume that amenity=parking without access tags is public, and when mapping from aerial imagery some parking will be likely (but not certainly) access restricted, in such cases tagging them unknown would be a good idea.

Tagging access=unknown doesn't help. Data consumers still need to assume something (in this case either public or not public). To me *=unknown tags don't make sense.

[mkoniecz]

There is a difference "parking access is not explicitly tagged, in 98% cases it is public but in 2% it is private" and "parking access is explicitly tagged as unknown by mapper, there is 40% chance that it is private"

(stats guessed for illustration purposes)

For example OSM Carto will show amenity=parking as public and amenity=parking access=unknown will be assumed for safety as private and shown this way.

[anonymous]

That sounds to me like something that carto/data consumers should solve. Also, which tags *=unknown are next?

I'd rather suggest they assume unknown until tagged yes or no. And "use" JOSM to encourage adding explicit access tags when creating parkings.

[gaben]

Replying to Klumbumbus:

Tagging access=unknown doesn't help. Data consumers still need to assume something (in this case either public or not public). To me *=unknown tags don't make sense.

I agree. StreetComplete does a similar thing by adding unnecessary tags. Like bike infrastructure, which does not exist (is there a bike lane? -> no), and if they build one there, the map will be explicitly wrong. (Also, to my knowledge, it will never ask again because it sees "no"...)

If we map what doesn't exist, then anyone can randomly generate petabytes of data, the map still will not be better. I see the unknown access tag similarly. For partial information better-suited storage exists, like notes or fixme/note tags which are free text fields without restriction.

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to mkoniecz:

There is a difference "parking access is not explicitly tagged, in 98% cases it is public but in 2% it is private" and "parking access is explicitly tagged as unknown by mapper, there is 40% chance that it is private"

(stats guessed for illustration purposes)

I don't think you can assume it this way (regardless from the actual numbers).

For example OSM Carto will show amenity=parking as public and amenity=parking access=unknown will be assumed for safety as private and shown this way.

OSM carto as data consumer of cause can handle it this way. They need to somehow manage the "tagging mess" they get. But JOSM as editing programm should rather encourage the users to add proper tags instead of "suboptimal" tags.
What about a warning about amenity=parking without access/vehicle/...=* (and keep the *=unknown warning)?

[mkoniecz]

What about a warning about amenity=parking without access=*?

Without consider access=unknown as acceptable for tagging cases where access is unknown to mapper it would encourage guessing and make things worse.

[Klumbumbus]

(I just edited my last sentence in my previous comment)

[Famlam]

Replying to mkoniecz:

What about a warning about amenity=parking without access=*?

Without consider access=unknown as acceptable for tagging cases where access is unknown to mapper it would encourage guessing and make things worse.

It could be an info-level warning that Klumbumbus suggests, if you're concerned about this. There are so many warnings that I typically ignore while mapping, unless I'm certain about something, simply because I don't know. However, I'd not add lit=unknown, access=unknown, surface=unknown, maxspeed=unknown, ... even though all of those tags will affect data consumers somehow. So definitely a downvote from me for adding (or even accepting) anything=unknown

[skyper]

​A discussion on the German forum about access=unknown showed lots of dislikes, too.

Wontfix?

[gaben]

Always tag what we know for sure, there is no point in tagging undefined explicitly. It is the default.