Modify

Opened 7 weeks ago

Closed 5 weeks ago

#19641 closed enhancement (fixed)

Add internal preset for shop "Second hand".

Reported by: tomasmarklund Owned by: team
Priority: normal Milestone: 20.08
Component: Internal preset Version:
Keywords: Cc:

Description (last modified by tomasmarklund)

Add new internal preset for shop "Second hand", maybe in group Shop/Home Decoration or Shop/Other.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=second_hand

The content of the preset dialog should be the same as for other shop presets, for example shop=antiques, including

*Name
*Opening hours
*wheelchair

And links to presets
*Contact
*Adress
*Payment methods

Attachments (0)

Change History (15)

comment:1 Changed 7 weeks ago by tomasmarklund

Description: modified (diff)

comment:2 Changed 7 weeks ago by tomasmarklund

Description: modified (diff)
Summary: Add internal preset "Second hand".Add internal preset for shop "Second hand".

comment:3 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Milestone: 20.08

comment:4 Changed 7 weeks ago by skyper

second_hand=* could be added to more shop presets and a line like <label text="Consider using a precise `shop=*` together with `second_hand=*`" /> would be nice for this preset.

comment:5 Changed 7 weeks ago by mkoniecz

shop=second_hand is never a preferred tagging, it should be supported only in sense of trigger a validator warning.

Having shop selling used cars and used clothes within the same tag is a mistake.

comment:6 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

For shops specialized on selling a wide range of second hand items (and selling second hand items only) I think it is fine to tag it as shop=second_hand. Better than choosing an other specific shop type together with second_hand=only which would much likely exclude a product type.

comment:7 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Also the tag grows with more than 1000 per year. https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#***/shop/second_hand

comment:8 Changed 7 weeks ago by mkoniecz

For shops specialized on selling a wide range of second hand items (and selling second hand items only) I think it is fine to tag it as shop=second_hand.

Do you maybe have photo of such shop? All known to me would be well described by shop=variety_store + second_hand=only.

comment:9 in reply to:  8 Changed 7 weeks ago by skyper

Replying to mkoniecz:

For shops specialized on selling a wide range of second hand items (and selling second hand items only) I think it is fine to tag it as shop=second_hand.

Do you maybe have photo of such shop? All known to me would be well described by shop=variety_store + second_hand=only.

Not the ones I know. I know two different kinds.

  1. The traditional ones which can be from a garage full of stuff to a real shop, sometimes buying used things to resell.
  2. The so called "Free Shops" where you can drop of and take for free.

You can find almost everything if you are lucky and I have to disappoint you, I have found vehicles including cars offered for sale there together with clothes, furniture, electronics, kitchen utilities, LPs and a lot more.

Only food, you seldomly find in these places.

Last edited 7 weeks ago by skyper (previous) (diff)

comment:10 Changed 7 weeks ago by mkoniecz

"vide variety of cheap things" seems to be fitting for shop=variety_store

Or are there selling teddy bears together with expensive jewellery and so-old-that-actually-valuable stuff?

Though used cars that you mentioned will likely push it out of variety_store:(

Last edited 7 weeks ago by mkoniecz (previous) (diff)

comment:11 in reply to:  10 Changed 7 weeks ago by skyper

Replying to mkoniecz:

"vide variety of cheap things" seems to be fitting for shop=variety_store

"Cheap things" does not fit and would change the meaning of shop=variety_store to "store" (think "general_store" is in use).

Or are there selling teddy bears together with expensive jewellery and so-old-that-actually-valuable stuff?

Exactly, you can find real expensive clothes and cheap ones. By chance, even the person in charge did not recognize the value and you make a greate deal as the producing company might not have added any indication or logo.

Last edited 7 weeks ago by skyper (previous) (diff)

comment:12 Changed 7 weeks ago by tomasmarklund

To me, a variety store is a store who sells cheap, but new stuff (i.e, mostly crap). Selling second hand stuff is never the purpose of a variety store, so it is not even mentioned on the wiki as a possible combination.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dvariety_store

To add a tag second_hand=only I think would create a contradiction in terms. Like combining the tags "shop=new_cars" and "second_hand=only" (yes, I know this is a made up example).

The second hand shop however, has the only purpose to sell second hand stuff. Which is also described in the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=second_hand

As mentioned above, they sell anything from teddy bears to jewellery, clothes, tools, books, kitchenware, knitting needles, paintings and furniture.

You could call it "a larger garage sale", but often run by a company or (very common) some sort of volouneer associasion. These have NOTHING to do with stores like "Dollar store" and others who sell new cheap stuff. Some of the second hand stores (most of them) sell their stuff at low cost, but there are also "high quality second hand stores" who aren't cheap at all. But the stuff they sell is garuanteed second hand!

There are often stores named "second hand and antiques" clarifying that "this store sells both cheap and expencive stuff, but not a single new item". Therefore, a second hand store is MUCH closer related to a antique shop than a variety store.

Besides, there is not one single shop=variety_store combined with second_hand=only in the world (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop&value=variety_store#combinations), while there today (2020-08-08) are 9184 shop=second_hand. Shouldn't JOSM support the tags already in use by the community, instead of introducing completely new tag combinations never previously used?

comment:13 Changed 7 weeks ago by mkoniecz

Thanks skyper! To avoid the same misunderstanding (or missing knowledge) in future I copied this comments into https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dsecond_hand (I hope that it is OK with you)

To me, a variety store is a store who sells cheap, but new stuff (i.e, mostly crap)

I would not expect "new stuff" to be a defining feature of variety store.

comment:14 in reply to:  12 Changed 7 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Replying to tomasmarklund:

To me, a variety store is a store who sells cheap, but new stuff (i.e, mostly crap). Selling second hand stuff is never the purpose of a variety store

+1, a second hand shop is pretty much the "complement" to a variety store. While a variety store feeds the throwaway society with cheap (new) stuff, a second hand shop tries to reuse still good things. (Even if the primary goal of a second hand shop is to make profit too.) So in my eyes shop=variety_store + second_hand=* is not good tagging.

comment:15 Changed 5 weeks ago by Klumbumbus

Resolution: fixed
Status: newclosed

In 16930/josm:

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