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Opened 4 years ago

Last modified 4 weeks ago

#9400 assigned enhancement

validate source:maxspeed

Reported by: mkoniecz Owned by: Don-vip
Priority: normal Milestone: 17.08
Component: Core validator Version:
Keywords: maxspeed Cc:

Description (last modified by mkoniecz)

source:maxspeed=PL:living_street without maxspeed key or with any maxspeed value except 20 can be reported as "mismatch between source:maxspeed and maxspeed, for source:maxspeed=PL:living_street 20 is expected value of maxspeed"

report source:maxspeed=PL:living_street on any other object other than way with highway=living_street: "Living street should be tagged as highway=living_street and source:maxspeed=PL:living_street should not be placed on ways that are not a living street"

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Change History (31)

comment:1 Changed 4 years ago by skyper

Description: modified (diff)

comment:2 in reply to:  description Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

Summary: validate source:maxspeed=PL:living_streetvalidate source:maxspeed

Replying to Bulwersator:

source:maxspeed=PL:living_street without maxspeed key or with any maxspeed value except 20 can be reported as "mismatch between source:maxspeed and maxspeed, for source:maxspeed=PL:living_street 20 is expected value of maxspeed"

OK. I believe you, but is there an official website we could link to in documentation as well ? The limits in all countries are not eternal, it's good to check the official texts from time to time :)

report source:maxspeed=PL:living_street on any other object other than way with highway=living_street: "Living street should be tagged as highway=living_street"

OK to report a problem, but not with this text. It could also be the source:maxspeed value which is wrong.

highway=living_street with maxspeed=20, without source:maxspeed=PL:living_street: "For marking source of speed limit 20 as "Strefa zamieszkania" you may use source:maxspeed=PL:living_street"

No. Poland is not the whole world :p Think of other countries, I am sure we can find another one where living street are limited to 20 km/h as well :) We could however raise an informational message "maxspeed without source:maxspeed". It's up to the user to give the good value.

We should also make sure to validate other countries. Popular ones (at least 500 use) for this key are:

  • DE
  • PL
  • IT
  • AT
  • FR
  • DK
  • UK
  • CZ
  • BE
  • NL
  • HU
  • AU
  • LT
  • FI

But we should also look at other major OSM countries (US, RU, JA...)

comment:3 Changed 4 years ago by mkoniecz

Description: modified (diff)

comment:4 Changed 4 years ago by mkoniecz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_street#Around_the_world may be a good link, direct link to law is nearly impossible (171 pages of pdf in Polish, link http://isip.sejm.gov.pl/DetailsServlet?id=WDU19970980602 is likely to end dead once law is changed).

"Poland is not the whole world" - ops, it was stupid. I removed this case.

"We should also make sure to validate other countries." - I know, it is a good idea but I prefer to limit myself to area where my knowledge is not based solely on Wikipedia and googling. This probably may be added as a separate tickets (it is necessary to add all of this in one commit).

"OK to report a problem, but not with this text. It could also be the source:maxspeed value which is wrong." - good idea.

comment:5 Changed 4 years ago by mkoniecz

Description: modified (diff)

comment:6 Changed 4 years ago by skyper

"highway=living_street" is way to ambiguous itself. It was invented for special roads in Germany with "maxspeed=7" and pedestrians + children playing on the street have the right of way all the time, e.g. you have to be able to stop right away and you have to know that all the time a kid could jump out from behind a parking vehicle. It is one major mistake in OSM and we should rather use highway=residential plus living_street=yes. The proper translation from German "Spielstraße" would be "street to play on" which makes it clearer.

As "living_street" is in use in many countries it is a big mess and I rather would deprecate this value than introduce country specific checks in an editor.

A check which should be added is checking if the key exists if source:[key] is present.

comment:7 Changed 4 years ago by mkoniecz

I was thinking about it - how I am supposed to tag minor service road that is also in "Strefa zamieszkania"? According to current tagging system it is highway=living_road what makes a little sense. But changing this would be a major project.

comment:8 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

In 6481/josm:

see #9400 - tagchecker: warnings for source:* tags without their main tag

comment:9 in reply to:  6 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

Replying to skyper:

"highway=living_street" is way to ambiguous itself.

Not if it's clearly defined on the wiki. In France it matches a very specific, legally defined type of residential roads where pedestrians have the priority and maxspeed is set to 20 km/h, with a road sign of its own. As I understand you, the definition in Germany is also clear enough. I don't see this tag as deprecated, there is much more mess in some other tags :)

comment:10 Changed 4 years ago by mdk

In CH, BE und FR gibt es "Begegnungszonen" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begegnungszone . In AU sind diese 2013 beschlossen aber noch nicht umgesetzt. In CH gibt es dafür die Tafel http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:CH-Vorschriftssignal-Begegnungszone-1.svg
Sie ähneln den Wohnstrassen, aber mit Tempo 20 und etwas geringeren baulichen Anforderungen.

comment:11 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

In 6482/josm:

see #9400 - implement first points of source:maxspeed validation, move validator config files into data/validator

comment:12 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

In 6487/josm:

see #9400 - initialize data file for source:maxspeed validation

comment:13 Changed 4 years ago by anonymous

Yes, even in Slovakia a living_street is officially marked with a street sign. It is not up to the mapper to randomly assign it to any roads with guessed high probability of "a kid could jump out from behind a parking vehicle". And it has an official speed limit of 20km/h too.

comment:14 Changed 4 years ago by anonymous

So as I understand the proposal, the maxspeed is marked correctly (and parsable) IF:

This would be easy to check, however we need to report the negation of this, when the tags mismatch. I see these problems in there:

  • source:maxspeed string can probably be anything ("sign", "CC:road_type", but probably any other source which we can't parse). Can we determine the string is of the "CC:road_type" type?
  • do we want to check whether maxspeed=X has the correct value of X for the relevant country (CC) ? JOSM would have to have an internal table for allowed speeds. Could be taken from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed but would need constant update. But would be a very nice value for mappers.
  • do we want to check if the value of road_type is valid? Probably just ignore unknown values.

comment:15 Changed 4 years ago by mkoniecz

"do we want to check if the value of road_type is valid?" - it is already checked by validator (whatever value is in presets). In case of highways it probably can be elevated to warning status but it is for another ticket.

"would need constant update" I think that frequency of updates will be reasonable.

comment:16 in reply to:  14 ; Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

Replying to anonymous:

So as I

Who's speaking here ? It's hard to follow discussions with anonymous comments.

source:maxspeed string can probably be anything ("sign", "CC:road_type", but probably any other source which we can't parse). Can we determine the string is of the "CC:road_type" type?

Please look at existing code, that's what I started in r6482

JOSM would have to have an internal table for allowed speeds.

Same thing, please look at what we do before asking something we just started (r6487)

comment:17 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

In 6526/josm:

fix #9465, see #9400 - tagchecker: handling of maxspeed:forward/backward (to be converted to MapCSS after)

comment:18 Changed 4 years ago by aceman

Sorry, the anonymous comment 14 was mine...

comment:19 in reply to:  16 ; Changed 4 years ago by aceman

Replying to Don-vip:

source:maxspeed string can probably be anything ("sign", "CC:road_type", but probably any other source which we can't parse). Can we determine the string is of the "CC:road_type" type?

Please look at existing code, that's what I started in r6482

Sorry, even if a patch does something it should not do it silently, but the indended operation should be posted in the ticket so that anybody can understand JOSM without reading code.

JOSM would have to have an internal table for allowed speeds.

Same thing, please look at what we do before asking something we just started (r6487)

That changeset introduces only new keywords (rural, urban) that are not even mentioned in the ticket here (at first in my comment 14, which you dismiss as being duplicate talk). So it proves nothing. But I see those keywords are used in some places and welcome their addition. But they are additional to the request in this ticket. The other road types are not covered in that patch. So my question is still valid and unanswered.

comment:20 in reply to:  19 Changed 4 years ago by Don-vip

Replying to aceman:

Sorry, even if a patch does something it should not do it silently, but the indended operation should be posted in the ticket so that anybody can understand JOSM without reading code.

Will all due respect, you won't tell us how to work on our own project. I remind you my commits were all but silent, they are referenced in the previous comments. Before suggesting any technical idea, the minimal form of respect would be to read what we are currently doing. Comments on what we actually do are always welcome, though.

That changeset introduces only new keywords (rural, urban) that are not even mentioned in the ticket here

Because I don't want to only validate PL:living_street but implement a more general validation.

(at first in my comment 14, which you dismiss as being duplicate talk).

Sorry but I really don't want to waste my time to answer all your questions from comment 14 as you obviously didn't have a look to what I started. Please note the ticket is not "needinfo"; I know what I have to do to fix this ticket without anyone telling me what to do. Comments will be welcome if the implementation, once finished, misses errors or raises false positives, but it's not finished yet.

comment:21 Changed 9 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 16.11
Owner: changed from team to Don-vip
Status: newassigned

comment:22 Changed 9 months ago by Don-vip

In 11247/josm:

see #9400 - see #10387 - see #12914 - initial implementation of boundaries file, replacing left-right-hand-traffic.osm, discourage contributors to use operator=RFF and operator=ERDF in France (territories rules must be manually eabled on existing installations)

comment:23 Changed 9 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 16.1116.12

Milestone renamed

comment:24 Changed 8 months ago by Don-vip

Keywords: maxspeed added
Milestone: 16.1217.01

comment:25 Changed 7 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0117.02

comment:26 Changed 6 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0217.03

comment:27 Changed 5 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0317.04

comment:28 Changed 4 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0417.05

comment:29 Changed 3 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0517.06

comment:30 Changed 2 months ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0617.07

comment:31 Changed 4 weeks ago by Don-vip

Milestone: 17.0717.08

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